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Potsy
The wyrdest link
Joined: 29 Jul 2005
Posts: 6177
Location: Oztralia
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 Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 6:04 am Post subject: |
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| Yeah, usually men who start out ugly improve with age, but not that one. |
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NoName
Experienced Mass Debater
Joined: 30 Jul 2005
Posts: 950
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| Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 1:24 pm Post subject: |
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Andkon, you seem to be an intelligent fella but honestly I think you're whiny and full of shit when it comes to independent thought. If you are studying Plato then you're probably being tested on what his ideas were. Whether they were right or wrong is irrelevant.
I don't know what year you are in but the early years tend to try to form a base of knowledge and the actual independent thinking comes later, once that is established. If you think you have passed that stage you are not going to convince anyone unless you can demonstrate that you have that base of knowlegde already. Objective standards, sound familiar?
You wouldn't be expected to take an advanced class in n-dimentional geomertry without a good understanding of calculus first would you? There is actually wuite a bit of creativity and independent thougt in the maths and sciences, it just takes longer to get there because the base knowledge is so vast. People tend to think the humanities and philosophy should be taught at the level of PHDs right off.
You need the ground wrk first or you'll just look like a wanker that can't take criticism. Like I said, if you think you are beyond that point perhaps you should talk to the faculty and test for it, maybe you'll skip a few classes and get to the good stuff. Or just leave and quit your whining. |
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NoCoPilot
Amateur Thinker
Joined: 28 Jul 2005
Posts: 10954
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 4:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | It's called test. But when I have to take tests that are so cut-and-paste memory dumps, I just go crazy and dedicate the testing time to writing an essay on how and why the class is an insult to my intelligence. |
As I tell my daughter -- who's not much younger than you -- schooling isn't about WHAT you learn. Most of what they teach you is bullshit you'll never use in the rest of your life.
Schooling is about LEARNING HOW TO LEARN. How to absorb data and make sense of it. Exercising that muscle between your ears. It's a test, but not of what you know -- it's a test of your ability to learn useless stuff.
Because believe it or not, this is a skill that you DO use later in life. |
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andkon
It's not a VOW of chastity...
Joined: 04 Aug 2005
Posts: 21406
Location: Turn around
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| Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 5:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Gennaro wrote: | | Andkon, you seem to be an intelligent fella but honestly I think you're whiny and full of shit when it comes to independent thought. If you are studying Plato then you're probably being tested on what his ideas were. Whether they were right or wrong is irrelevant. |
I'm 20. I've been throughly tested for 15 years now. I'm not retarded and can retain bullshit at a tremendous rate. That's been established for quite some time now. I want something more creative and less boring.
And why is someone's level of error not relevant? If a teacher jammed a telephone book up your ass and asked you to memorize it, would you not ask the purpose of the assignment? Apparently not, but I would.
| Quote: | I don't know what year you are in but the early years tend to try to form a base of knowledge and the actual independent thinking comes later, once that is established. If you think you have passed that stage you are not going to convince anyone unless you can demonstrate that you have that base of knowlegde already. Objective standards, sound familiar?
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Gennaro, the problems are institutional. You simply can't write somethings regardless. I wrote this essay two years ago and by today's standards sounds extremely benign as compared with today's stuff. The teacher didn't even read it through, said it was the worst thing ever, and failed me. As this was in high school, my parents were called in without my knowledge and were told how awful I am for not letting a teacher masturbate a good book away. That's the mindset here.
Just as I get A's writing about someone's "insatiable appetite for sodomy", the content is not the problem with these essays. It's the fact that I dare call people on their bullshit. That's a very dangerous thing.
| Quote: | | You wouldn't be expected to take an advanced class in n-dimentional geomertry without a good understanding of calculus first would you? There is actually wuite a bit of creativity and independent thougt in the maths and sciences, it just takes longer to get there because the base knowledge is so vast. People tend to think the humanities and philosophy should be taught at the level of PHDs right off. |
There's absolutely nothing in the curriculum or course sheets or whatever that stirs my imagination.
| Quote: | | You need the ground wrk first or you'll just look like a wanker that can't take criticism. Like I said, if you think you are beyond that point perhaps you should talk to the faculty and test for it, maybe you'll skip a few classes and get to the good stuff. Or just leave and quit your whining. |
I've waited 20 years for the good stuff and it's gotten worse each year. You can't test out of anything because the standards for testing out are fucking high everywhere. The reason is simple: whereas a placement tests takes $100, a course costs many times more that. Let's not be naive here. Colleges are businesses known as limited printing presses of diplomas, nothing more.
| NCP wrote: | Schooling is about LEARNING HOW TO LEARN. How to absorb data and make sense of it. Exercising that muscle between your ears. It's a test, but not of what you know -- it's a test of your ability to learn useless stuff.
Because believe it or not, this is a skill that you DO use later in life. |
Yeah, that's the problem, but not if I can help it. Fatalism is not my philosophy of choice. |
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NoName
Experienced Mass Debater
Joined: 30 Jul 2005
Posts: 950
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| Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 8:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I'm 20. I've been throughly tested for 15 years now. |
And you will continue to be tested for the rest of your life. Just becaue you think you have gained sufficient knowledge to bypass something doesn't mean others should agree with you. As I said, you need to demonstrate that to those making the decisions and stop telling them they are idiots. That will get you nowhere.
| Quote: | | And why is someone's level of error not relevant? If a teacher jammed a telephone book up your ass and asked you to memorize it, would you not ask the purpose of the assignment? Apparently not, but I would. |
Of course I would question the assignment, and I always do. But having recieved an explanation I would agree or disagree accordingly. But, I would still do the assignment. If you're asked to explain the motivation behind Plato's philosopher kings no one cares whether you agree or not. They care that you understand the ideas and are able to pull them out of the text. That is what you are being tested on. If you are asked to explain and agree/disagree giving examples from modern society then go nuts.
| Quote: | Just as I get A's writing about someone's "insatiable appetite for sodomy", the content is not the problem with these essays. It's the fact that I dare call people on their bullshit. That's a very dangerous thing.
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I think it's more the fact that you don't do the assignment as asked. You make up your own assignment and go off on how repressed you are. Maybe you should try an independent study program.
| Quote: | | There's absolutely nothing in the curriculum or course sheets or whatever that stirs my imagination. |
Probably because that's not the purpose of the course in the first place.
| Quote: | | I've waited 20 years for the good stuff and it's gotten worse each year. |
Sounds like you will always see yourself as a step ahead of everyone so I can't see this getting any better for you.
I'm not tryig to dicourage you or tell you to follow the line. I'm trying to impart some advice from my own experiences. Mostly, my education was boring and unchallenging, and in fact not much has changed in the 'real world'. But, I do achieve my goals and gain a measure of independence. Not by tearing down the system but by working within it when I can. I have quit courses, jobs and relationships for many reasons. You don't need to submit yourself to this torture, but if you want a degree and to do independent reseach at the level you feel appropriate you will need to earn it. No one is going to just give it to you because you claim to understand them (or their teachings) more than they understand themselves.
No matter how much you tell someone that a particualr philosphy is wrong and irrelvant today, they won't believe you unless you can first demonstrate that you actually understand that philosphy in the first place.
If you tell me you've solved the gap between quantum mechanics and gravity but never once studied physics I don't think I'd believe you. And if I asked you to solve a dfferential equation but instead you went off about how irrelvant it was because you've solved much bigger problems and this is just memorization of technique I still wouldn't mark you as correct unless you actually solved the problem and answered the question.
No matter how apt your criticisms are you need to actually answer the questions first to earn any credibility. |
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NoCoPilot
Amateur Thinker
Joined: 28 Jul 2005
Posts: 10954
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 10:31 pm Post subject: |
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Andkon, I was in your situation (basically) 36 years ago, if I may be so bold. I was bored to tears by school, spent long hours away from campus (reading Nietzsche and Sartre and Whitehead), getting passing grades but barely. One day I finally got a teacher who understood my problem -- boredom, not lack of ability -- and she put me into some college-level classes and advanced-reader stuff. I suddenly found I could be interested in school after all, and completed high school in 2-1/2 years (straight As). Went on to college at 15.
Things kinda fell apart after that, due to lack of emotional maturity, but I would encourage you to seek stimulation ouitside the normal curriculum. Take night classes, join groups, watch the movie "A Little Romance." |
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Potsy
The wyrdest link
Joined: 29 Jul 2005
Posts: 6177
Location: Oztralia
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| Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 12:31 am Post subject: |
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Andkon, how is your online biz going? I hope it is working out, coz it seems to me that you need a break from the education system. I broke for 30 years. It is a good plan if you have an alternative way to earn a living. The break can be as long or short as you need. I 100% understand what it is like, being smarter than all the teachers is hard to bear, especially if the teachers have stopped thinking for themselves, and are just doing the stuff till their pensioin kicks in. I don't know how they can stand it, they are in complete ruts and want to drag everyone in with them.
Learning obviously never ceases, so obvioiusly it is not all done at college. Just find some alternative way...in Aust we have Open University, we have multipole delivery methods at technical colleges, and tons of workplace training. I think your parents should just start to realize they can't hammer a round peg into a square hole and back you in your endeavours to find an alternative. Have a heart to heart talk with them, try to keep yourself under control so as to get your own way and soon you'll be doing something more interesting. |
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Cloud Walker
One with the Universe
Joined: 28 Jul 2005
Posts: 5572
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| Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 1:06 am Post subject: |
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| andkon wrote: | | But what's on the test or any other stuff that's graded? |
What's it matter if he's teaching correctly?
On the tests we are asked to explain certain ideas that the ancients held. One of the essays on the first test involved explaining and defeating one of Zeno's paradoxes. |
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andkon
It's not a VOW of chastity...
Joined: 04 Aug 2005
Posts: 21406
Location: Turn around
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| Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 1:51 am Post subject: |
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| Potterer wrote: | | Andkon, how is your online biz going? I hope it is working out, coz it seems to me that you need a break from the education system. |
For the first eight days of being CEO of a not-yet existent Andkon Inc., I was pulling in enough to have over $1500 a month. About two weeks ago, Black Friday came and I've been averging to just around $450/month. Not bad for sitting on my ass, though. $400-500 is not enough, and then there's the part where I have to eat. However, I recently replaced my four Google ads strip with a single Google ad plus really neat e-minimall things. So far, the Google thing pays the same even with 1/4 the ads and the e-minimall is a cash click cow (with payout 10 times higher as Google). Hopefully that'll keep up and from what I've read, it will.
I also wasted half a day figuring out that in the United States, having an S-corporation would a great idea since I wouldn't be double-taxed (as opposed to the usual tax on corporations and then shareholders) and would still get to write off many things at the expense of the American people. I'll be stimulating the economy of course, so it's only fair I get special treatment... In Texas it costs a few weeks and a $300 fee to incorporate... I'm not sure if I can write off any future rent as office expenses though...
| Quote: | | I think your parents should just start to realize they can't hammer a round peg into a square hole and back you in your endeavours to find an alternative. Have a heart to heart talk with them, try to keep yourself under control so as to get your own way and soon you'll be doing something more interesting. |
That's the main problem, parents. I doubt they'll understand which means I'll have to go from total dependence to total independence. I'm all for it, but it requires around $1000 ($400 rent + $20 Internets + $300 food + $100 other + "I can walk, I must walk"...) yes very loose calculations, but good enough at the present time) at the very least per month. The semester ends in mid-December which means I have until then to build my site before I flee into the wilderness or something. |
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andkon
It's not a VOW of chastity...
Joined: 04 Aug 2005
Posts: 21406
Location: Turn around
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| Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 2:13 am Post subject: |
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| NoCoPilot wrote: | | and she put me into some college-level classes and advanced-reader stuff. I suddenly found I could be interested in school after all, and completed high school in 2-1/2 years (straight As). Went on to college at 15. |
Yeah, the last two years of high school seem like a big waste. And nowadays colleges rarely accept students before they're of the usual senior-age.
| NoCoPilot wrote: | | Things kinda fell apart after that, due to lack of emotional maturity, but I would encourage you to seek stimulation ouitside the normal curriculum. |
Yes, I let out my anger in the form of a comic strip every single day, among others. It provides an outlet for creativity and passive aggressive behavior.
| CW wrote: | What's it matter if he's teaching correctly?
On the tests we are asked to explain certain ideas that the ancients held. One of the essays on the first test involved explaining and defeating one of Zeno's paradoxes. |
I don't agree with that, actually. I'm more of a cumulative project type guy. I'm for open-book tests simply because education should not be about copy-and-paste. Tests with their cramming remind me of constipation.
I also have a crummy, spotty memory, so we can see why I hate school. For example, I can't remember the lyrics to any song, as in really. Also, every few weeks, some Andkon fan tries to talk to me online and starts quoting something and going LOL. I usually have to use Google to find out when and what for I wrote that quoted something... :-(
I can fortunately remember short phrases and locations rather well, so I might not be able to know what exactly I'm trying to remember, but I have a feeling it's on page whatever in the right-hand column. Definately weird.
| Quote: |
If you're asked to explain the motivation behind Plato's philosopher kings no one cares whether you agree or not. They care that you understand the ideas and are able to pull them out of the text. |
Sad story. My senior year in high school: I had a term paper to do. Since 18-year-olds are automatically idiots, we needed to have 20 sources for a 20-page double-spaced contraption. Every single idea in the paper had to be cited. Nothing wrong with giving credit where it's due, but the effect was to stifle the student's own opinions. As a result, I had to do what I now call benign plagiarism: I act as the ghost-writer for my own paper by inventing sources from scratch or putting words into the mouth of others. Pretty depressing.
| Quote: | | If you tell me you've solved the gap between quantum mechanics and gravity but never once studied physics I don't think I'd believe you. |
Many fields of knowledge shouldn't require degrees to be on par with degree-holders. That's what creates the self-serving talking heads on TV... the experts who know everything better than anyone else. |
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Potsy
The wyrdest link
Joined: 29 Jul 2005
Posts: 6177
Location: Oztralia
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| Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 3:20 am Post subject: an idiot? |
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| Quote: | | Many fields of knowledge shouldn't require degrees to be on par with degree-holders. |
When I was 7 or 8 I discovered the Laws of Physics like Newton did, all by myself in a huge empty space and a few toys. I went and told my Dad my wonderful discoveries, but he just PoohPoohed them and said Newton had worked that out a few hundred years ago and everybody knew it. But he never stopped to think that an 8 year old had just worked them out for herself independently. So after that experience I never told anyone what I "discovered" for myself. |
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NoName
Experienced Mass Debater
Joined: 30 Jul 2005
Posts: 950
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| Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 1:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Many fields of knowledge shouldn't require degrees to be on par with degree-holders. That's what creates the self-serving talking heads on TV... the experts who know everything better than anyone else. |
This I agree with. But you missed my point. I wasn't saying you couldn't do anything without a degree. I was saying you would have to prove it to the experts. Telling people that you're right is differet than showing them that you're right. |
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andkon
It's not a VOW of chastity...
Joined: 04 Aug 2005
Posts: 21406
Location: Turn around
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| Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 11:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Gennaro wrote: | | Quote: | | Many fields of knowledge shouldn't require degrees to be on par with degree-holders. That's what creates the self-serving talking heads on TV... the experts who know everything better than anyone else. |
This I agree with. But you missed my point. I wasn't saying you couldn't do anything without a degree. I was saying you would have to prove it to the experts. Telling people that you're right is differet than showing them that you're right. |
How would you prove to Christians that God doesn't exist? Would you become a priest and then say, "AHA! God doesn't exist!" |
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HFMoon
But I don't want a title!
Joined: 01 Aug 2005
Posts: 788
Location: Los Angeles
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| Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2005 12:15 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | When I was 7 or 8 I discovered the Laws of Physics like Newton did, all by myself in a huge empty space and a few toys. I went and told my Dad my wonderful discoveries, but he just PoohPoohed them and said Newton had worked that out a few hundred years ago and everybody knew it. But he never stopped to think that an 8 year old had just worked them out for herself independently. So after that experience I never told anyone what I "discovered" for myself. |
That sucks, Potterer. Seriously, what a shitty thing to do to a kid.
I suddenly love my dad just that much more for the way he encouraged my "discoveries". |
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NoName
Experienced Mass Debater
Joined: 30 Jul 2005
Posts: 950
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| Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2005 3:49 am Post subject: |
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| There are exceptions to every rule but I just don't think you are one of them. Just tring to tell you that telling everyone that they are idiots and their ideas are bs doesn't go over very well with me. Especially if you don't take the time to demonstrate that you understand what their ideas are in the first place. We'll just agree to disagree on the point that you are the smartest person on the planet and therefore should not be questioned. |
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andkon
It's not a VOW of chastity...
Joined: 04 Aug 2005
Posts: 21406
Location: Turn around
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| Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2005 5:04 am Post subject: |
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| Gennaro wrote: | | There are exceptions to every rule but I just don't think you are one of them. Just tring to tell you that telling everyone that they are idiots and their ideas are bs doesn't go over very well with me. Especially if you don't take the time to demonstrate that you understand what their ideas are in the first place. We'll just agree to disagree on the point that you are the smartest person on the planet and therefore should not be questioned. |
I'm really not sure what's so hard to understand. Here I go again, though.
Exhibit #1. This is the study guide given to me by the professor for the philosophy test I refused to finish. The questions were essentially identical on the test, though there were a lot less. As can be clearly seen, a Turing (I prounounce it to rhyme with boring) Machine could have looked up the answers as even the chapter/section location of each was pointed out.
Exhibit #2: I graduated high school, which is the same as college in most respects, with a 4.10 GPA on a scale of 4, corresponding to an A+/Nerd+ rating. In America, the cumulative four-year GPA is usually calculated as follows:
sqrt[(# fellatios performed) * .0004) + (# of times bent over) * .0006 ]
Exhibit #3: My SAT score was a 1450, placing me in the top 2% of seniors. Had I prepared for it or taken it again (as can be done without penalty), I might have pumped my score even further. Based on the SAT, the only places in America I could be called mediocre are Harvard and Yale.
However, these two scores measure nothing but obedience to bullshit. If these two were used to measure intelligence, I'd say the margin of error is +/- 4.00 for GPA and +/- 500 for the SAT.
So back to whatever. I'm bored with college. I wish people questioned me. But that never happens in school. I'm supposed to supply answers all the time, answers which I are totally predictable and cookie-cutter. |
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flammifer
Goatmaster
Joined: 28 Jul 2005
Posts: 2111
Location: Paris
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| Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2005 10:20 am Post subject: |
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| (By the way, you may have already said, but, what's your major ?) |
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andkon
It's not a VOW of chastity...
Joined: 04 Aug 2005
Posts: 21406
Location: Turn around
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| Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2005 10:32 am Post subject: |
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| flammifer wrote: | | (By the way, you may have already said, but, what's your major ?) |
International studies. "Terrorists are bad because they don't think America is the greatest country because they are terrorists." |
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OliverBendix
Experienced Mass Debater
Joined: 28 Jul 2005
Posts: 1650
Location: www.moera.org.nz
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| Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2005 7:27 am Post subject: |
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| andkon wrote: | [
How would you prove to Christians that God doesn't exist? Would you become a priest and then say, "AHA! God doesn't exist!" |
It's been done. |
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andkon
It's not a VOW of chastity...
Joined: 04 Aug 2005
Posts: 21406
Location: Turn around
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| Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2005 6:07 pm Post subject: |
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Apart from almost running me over with his SUV today, I got a response from my philosophy professor:
| Quote: | Dear Mr. Konya,
Two issues. First, in order to have creative input, you must have something yourself with which to create. You cannot think for yourself if you do not know how to think and have nothing to think with.
Second, memorization is necessary although far from sufficient for
understanding and thinking. I admit that the test was heavy on
memorization, but I am glad if students are able to at least reach that
stage. Moreover, it is much easier to memorize material when you understand it. The students who did well on the test genuinely understood the material.
If you wish, you can continue the course with a "50" for your first test.
But you will not receive special treatment.
Yours,
xxxxxxxxxx |
Rather unexpected, though he pretends that there will be creative input sessions sometime in the future. That's not what the syllabus says.
So DU, what do I write back? Any suggestions, given that this is my last semester in college? I mean things are just fading slowly away now. I'm still going to other classes just because... No reason really, but there's nothing to do... Hitting the refresh button on my Ad Report page is rather boring. Back before my new source of slight but growing income, writing stuff like this was courageous, now it seems pointless because there's no sacrifice involved. (SACRIFICE!!)
So maybe the best thing is not to go to class and to take the next test. I'll cram like crazy, get an A, and at the bottom write: "I didn't come to class and yet made an A, which casts doubts on the usefulness of both. Goodbye."  |
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Potsy
The wyrdest link
Joined: 29 Jul 2005
Posts: 6177
Location: Oztralia
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| Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2005 9:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Andkon as it is your last sememster, bite the bullet and go to class. It will give you something to do. Ask the outrageous questions in class, get the other students thinking. THen at least you will have contributed to them thinking a bit. Obviously this proff thinks you have something to contribute or he wouldn't have given in and let you have a 50 and ask you to come back. Hey, who knows, you might then get an A without having to cram. Then in a few more months you're free? But you will have got others thinking too, so one sucess under your belt, no two if you count your web site, no three if you count your income earning abillity even if right now it's a bit small. Keep going, don't give up, you're too smart to let them pull you down. Go through it knowing that to get to the other side of a stream you must swim with the current for a short time. Good luck.( but I don't think you'll need it) |
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