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keithprosser2
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Joined: 29 Jul 2005
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 Posted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 9:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | If God does not exist, then both man and the universe are inevitably doomed to death. Man, like all biological organisms, must die. With no hope of immortality, man’s life leads only to the grave. His life is but a spark in the infinite blackness, a spark that appears, flickers, and dies forever. Compared to the infinite stretch of time, the span of man’s life is but an infinitesimal moment; and yet this is all the life he will ever know. Therefore, everyone must come face to face with what theologian Paul Tillich has called “the threat of non-being.” For though I know now that I exist, that I am alive, I also know that someday I will no longer exist, that I will no longer be, that I will die. This thought is staggering and threatening: to think that the person I call “myself” will cease to exist, that I will be no more! |
That's actually quite good. But just because ' ... "myself" will cease to exist, that I will be no more.." is a rather unpleasant prospect, it isn't therefore untrue! One cannot wish away ones death and non-existence - it is the fate of every thing that lives, as he quote says. I confess that I, personally, don't like the idea of non-existence - we are programmed to prize our life and we do fear death - at least until one reaches the point where life starts to wear a bit thin. But wishful thinking isn't the answer to the fear of death. Resigned Acceptance is probably the best bet, if you can manage it! The Hindu are actually supposed to prize non-existence as the ultimate reward of a good life - re-incarnation is very much second best - but I don't suppose that theory makes death much more palatable in India than it is elsewhere!
Of course we'd all like to live forever*. But wishing ain't going to make it so, and the fact that people 2000 years ago also feared death and wrote a book to make them feel better about it doesn't make it true either. There is no Santa Claus, there is no life after death. It would be nicer if there were both, or even either, but there isn't.
(Academic note :I say 2000 not 3000 or 4000 on purpose - the ancient Hebrew did not believe in life after death and it's not to be found in the OT - in the OT death is final. The idea of life after death crept in to Jewish consciousness from foreign sources just before New Testament times).
(* well, may be not Wolverine-proof exactly literally, but you know what I mean!).
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angelobrazil
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Joined: 13 Nov 2007
Posts: 194
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| Posted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 10:57 pm Post subject: |
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| keithprosser2 wrote: |
Of course we'd all like to live forever*. But wishing ain't going to make it so, and the fact that people 2000 years ago also feared death and wrote a book to make them feel better about it doesn't make it true either. There is no Santa Claus, there is no life after death. It would be nicer if there were both, or even either, but there isn't. |
that is what you believe. But you don't know. Its just your guess, which fits your faith.
But there is evidence life continues after death.
http://elshamah.heavenforum.com/bible-christianity-f6/heaven-hell-near-death-experience-testimonies-t127.htm
Near-death experiences , evidence of dualism
http://elshamah.heavenforum.com/the-bible-faith-and-science-f7/near-death-experiences-evidence-of-dualism-t254.htm
Near-death experience in survivors of cardiac arrest: a prospective study in the Netherlands
"During a night shift an ambulance brings in a 44-year-old cyanotic, comatose man into the coronary care unit. He had been found about an hour before in a meadow by passers-by. After admission, he receives artificial respiration without intubation, while heart massage and defibrillation are also applied. When we want to intubate the patient, he turns out to have dentures in his mouth. I remove these upper dentures and put them onto the 'crash car'. Meanwhile, we continue extensive CPR. After about an hour and a half the patient has sufficient heart rhythm and blood pressure, but he is still ventilated and intubated, and he is still comatose. He is transferred to the intensive care unit to continue the necessary artificial respiration. Only after more than a week do I meet again with the patient, who is by now back on the cardiac ward. I distribute his medication. The moment he sees me he says: 'Oh, that nurse knows where my dentures are'. I am very surprised. Then he elucidates: 'Yes, you were there when I was brought into hospital and you took my dentures out of my mouth and put them onto that car, it had all these bottles on it and there was this sliding drawer underneath and there you put my teeth.' I was especially amazed because I remembered this happening while the man was in deep coma and in the process of CPR. When I asked further, it appeared the man had seen himself lying in bed, that he had perceived from above how nurses and doctors had been busy with CPR. He was also able to describe correctly and in detail the small room in which he had been resuscitated as well as the appearance of those present like myself. At the time that he observed the situation he had been very much afraid that we would stop CPR and that he would die. And it is true that we had been very negative about the patient's prognosis due to his very poor medical condition when admitted. The patient tells me that he desperately and unsuccessfully tried to make it clear to us that he was still alive and that we should continue CPR. He is deeply impressed by his experience and says he is no longer afraid of death. 4 weeks later he left hospital as a healthy man."
If every person in the world thought of an ice cream at exactly 1pm on the very same day, that is mental reality. It is just as real as physical reality. It occurred in a point in time, and would be part of historical reality.
Whether science detected their thoughts at that time or not can never make that mental reality disappear. So if you ask every person who thought of the ice cream if he/she really thought of an ice cream, you would of course get a positive answer.
But wait, by their definition of reality, the atheists MUST say this event did not occur. It cannot be verified because it it is impossible to detect their thoughts by a scientific instrument nor by the five senses.
So how can atheists even argue that only physical reality is reality? There is such a thing as mental, non-physical reality just as real. If it happened, then it's real. This truth is logically impossible to refute by any atheist.
It only shows the atheist view of what reality/truth is about is fundamentally flawed. "To see is to believe" cannot stand when attacked well.
Some atheist argue that thoughts are from the brain only. But this is easily defeated.
You can measure the size of the brain, brain cells, etc. but why can't you measure the size of the ice cream (see above example) I thought about? If it's from the brain alone, then it should be physically measurable.
It is self-evident that thoughts come from the mind. To say that thoughts come from the brain alone is a fallacy. We can also observe that the mind can exist independent of the brain. |
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Cloud Walker
One with the Universe
Joined: 28 Jul 2005
Posts: 5651
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| Posted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 11:00 pm Post subject: Re: Question for Theists. |
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| angelobrazil wrote: | | mortato wrote: |
All I see is a statement that a divine mind is simple. Can you explain or even highlight any evidence or reasoning behind this statement? |
As an unembodied mind, God is a remarkably simple entity. As a non-physical entity, a mind is not composed of parts
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/divine-simplicity/
God is radically unlike creatures in that he is devoid of any complexity or composition, whether physical or metaphysical. Besides lacking spatial and temporal parts, God is free of matter/form composition, potency/act composition, and existence/essence composition. |
| flammifer wrote: | | I'm still not seeing any evidence or reasoning there. |
Oh I see. This goes back to the Platonists and Plato himself. It stems from Platos idea that... ideas... have an existence of their own. His doctrine of Forms.
The only way that these assertions can be true is if you take them to mean that God is an idea. God is just in your head. I agree, of course. |
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Beau Tochs
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Location: Virginia US
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| Posted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 11:07 pm Post subject: |
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| angelobrazil wrote: | | Nonsensical blather. |
You really are a fucking loon. The incoherent gibberish and ignorant bullshit you continue to espouse is simply breathtaking. If you think that your mind can exist independent of your brain, then why don't you give us demonstrable evidence? Blow your brains out, then get back in touch with us - okay? We'll be waiting.
How in the fuck do you actually survive in the modern world? Do you have aides or nurses who take care of you? I simply cannot imagine that a fucking imbecile such as yourself can be left alone to take care of himself. |
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Lisa 1
Experienced Mass Debater
Joined: 11 May 2009
Posts: 1991
Location: Michigan
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| Posted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 11:17 pm Post subject: |
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| angelobrazil wrote: | | If every person in the world thought of an ice cream at exactly 1pm on the very same day, that is mental reality... |
If I was thinking of something else at exactly 1pm on the very same day that everyone else was thinking about ice cream, would I be plagued by plagues?. Just curious. |
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mortato
Experienced Mass Debater
Joined: 11 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 3:18 am Post subject: |
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| angelobrazil wrote: |
I dont think so. There will be no more regret, than to have missed what life is all about. And your sins will be all exposed, and you will feel sorry about them. You will percieve the difference between your sinful nature, and the holyness of God. That will be exactly what will not make you want to live with God. You will not support his holyness.
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Chuffin right I would not want to support his holyness. Nasty small minded child killer that this God character is. |
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mortato
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Joined: 11 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 3:31 am Post subject: |
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| angelobrazil wrote: |
Who are you to judge my morality ? You dont know me, you dont know my life. And you have no right, even if you would know my life, to judge me.
There is no objective morality for whom is a atheist. Theoretically, you can rape a small child, and moreally speaking, there is absolutely nothing wrong with it. Its like eating a ice cream. If God does not exist, no objective moral values exist.
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Are you saying that you cannot work out for yourself why child-rape is wrong and that you need a Bible to tell you that it is wrong? |
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angelobrazil
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Joined: 13 Nov 2007
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| Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 5:33 am Post subject: |
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| mortato wrote: |
Are you saying that you cannot work out for yourself why child-rape is wrong and that you need a Bible to tell you that it is wrong? |
i can work it out for myself. But someone else might think differently, and if objective moral values do not exist, everything is relative, and a oposite view might be as much valid as mine. Who sets the standard of what is right, what is wrong, faced the fact, that nobody of us is perfectly rational ? morality would be then wholly subjective and non-binding. We cannot be good or bad without God. |
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Buzz
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Joined: 27 Dec 2007
Posts: 805
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| Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 8:21 am Post subject: |
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| angelobrazil wrote: | | i can work it out for myself. But someone else might think differently, and if objective moral values do not exist, everything is relative, and a oposite view might be as much valid as mine. Who sets the standard of what is right, what is wrong, faced the fact, that nobody of us is perfectly rational ? morality would be then wholly subjective and non-binding. We cannot be good or bad without God. |
It's amazing that the "morality of God", set out in the Bible just happens to be the same as the morality of a Bronze-Age tribe who practiced slavery and had to slaughter their enemies to survive.
Fortunately, humanity has moved on since then. |
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mortato
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Joined: 11 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 8:25 am Post subject: |
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| angelobrazil wrote: | | mortato wrote: |
Are you saying that you cannot work out for yourself why child-rape is wrong and that you need a Bible to tell you that it is wrong? |
i can work it out for myself. But someone else might think differently, and if objective moral values do not exist, everything is relative, and a oposite view might be as much valid as mine. Who sets the standard of what is right, what is wrong, faced the fact, that nobody of us is perfectly rational ? morality would be then wholly subjective and non-binding. We cannot be good or bad without God. |
The one who can put forward the reasoned argument wins.
The one who can get the majority to agree with his reasoned argument wins.
You can actually improve morality if you take the Bible out of the equation. By being able to reason through the "why" of the argument you can improve the morality and apply it to situations that are not in the Bible.
Do you honestly believe there are no "good" people in the world who are not Christians? What about people who do good deeds just for the sake of it and not for a reward from their god? Is this not better than people who only do good deeds because they believe their god is watching them? |
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angelobrazil
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| Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 11:07 am Post subject: |
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| Buzz wrote: | | angelobrazil wrote: | | i can work it out for myself. But someone else might think differently, and if objective moral values do not exist, everything is relative, and a oposite view might be as much valid as mine. Who sets the standard of what is right, what is wrong, faced the fact, that nobody of us is perfectly rational ? morality would be then wholly subjective and non-binding. We cannot be good or bad without God. |
It's amazing that the "morality of God", set out in the Bible just happens to be the same as the morality of a Bronze-Age tribe who practiced slavery and had to slaughter their enemies to survive.
Fortunately, humanity has moved on since then. |
have you read the old testament ? the bible ? not ?
well, that is the most frequent argument i hear from atheists against the God of the bible.
Did God Commit Atrocities in the Old Testament?
http://elshamah.heavenforum.com/bible-christianity-f6/did-god-commit-atrocities-in-the-old-testament-t148.htm
http://www.reasonablefaith.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5767
According to the Pentateuch (the first five books of the Old Testament), when God called forth his people out of slavery in Egypt and back to the land of their forefathers, he directed them to kill all the Canaanite clans who were living in the land (Deut. 7.1-2; 20.16-1 . The destruction was to be complete: every man, woman, and child was to be killed. The book of Joshua tells the story of Israel’s carrying out God’s command in city after city throughout Canaan.
These stories offend our moral sensibilities. Ironically, however, our moral sensibilities in the West have been largely, and for many people unconsciously, shaped by our Judaeo-Christian heritage, which has taught us the intrinsic value of human beings, the importance of dealing justly rather than capriciously, and the necessity of the punishment’s fitting the crime. The Bible itself inculcates the values which these stories seem to violate.
The command to kill all the Canaanite peoples is jarring precisely because it seems so at odds with the portrait of Yahweh, Israel’s God, which is painted in the Hebrew Scriptures. Contrary to the vituperative rhetoric of someone like Richard Dawkins, the God of the Hebrew Bible is a God of justice, long-suffering, and compassion.
prior to Israel’s bondage in Egypt, God tells Abraham,
“Know for certain that your offspring will be sojourners in a land that is not theirs and will be servants there, and they will be afflicted for four hundred years. . . . And they shall come back here in the fourth generation, for the iniquity of the Amorites [one of the Canaanite clans] is not yet complete” (Gen. 15. 13, 16).
Think of it! God stays His judgement of the Canaanite clans 400 years because their wickedness had not reached the point of intolerability! This is the long-suffering God we know in the Hebrew Scriptures. He even allows his own chosen people to languish in slavery for four centuries before determining that the Canaanite peoples are ripe for judgement and calling His people forth from Egypt.
By the time of their destruction, Canaanite culture was, in fact, debauched and cruel, embracing such practices as ritual prostitution and even child sacrifice. The Canaanites are to be destroyed “that they may not teach you to do according to all their abominable practices that they have done for their gods, and so you sin against the Lord your God” (Deut. 20.1. God had morally sufficient reasons for His judgement upon Canaan, and Israel was merely the instrument of His justice, just as centuries later God would use the pagan nations of Assyria and Babylon to judge Israel.
By setting such strong, harsh dichotomies God taught Israel that any assimilation to pagan idolatry is intolerable. It was His way of preserving Israel’s spiritual health and posterity. God knew that if these Canaanite children were allowed to live, they would spell the undoing of Israel. The killing of the Canaanite children not only served to prevent assimilation to Canaanite identity but also served as a shattering, tangible illustration of Israel’s being set exclusively apart for God. |
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angelobrazil
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| Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 11:11 am Post subject: |
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| mortato wrote: |
Do you honestly believe there are no "good" people in the world who are not Christians? What about people who do good deeds just for the sake of it and not for a reward from their god? Is this not better than people who only do good deeds because they believe their god is watching them? |
look around you, and you will find the answer :
Romans 3:9 What then? Are we better off? Certainly not,
for we have already charged that Jews and Greeks alike
are all under sin, 3:10 just as it is written:
“There is no one righteous, not even one,
3:11 there is no one who understands,
there is no one who seeks God.
3:12 All have turned away,
together they have become worthless;
there is no one who shows kindness, not even one.” 15
3:13 “Their throats are open graves, 16
they deceive with their tongues,
the poison of asps is under their lips.” 17
3:14 “Their mouths are 18 full of cursing and bitterness.” 19
3:15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood,
3:16 ruin and misery are in their paths,
3:17 and the way of peace they have not known.” 20
3:18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.” 21
3:19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under 22 the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world may be held accountable to God. 3:20 For no one is declared righteous before him 23 by the works of the law, 24 for through the law comes 25 the knowledge of sin. 3:21 But now 26 apart from the law the righteousness of God (which is attested by the law and the prophets) 27 has been disclosed – 3:22 namely, the righteousness of God through the faithfulness of Jesus Christ 28 for all who believe. For there is no distinction, 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. 3:24 But they are justified 29 freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. |
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keithprosser2
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Joined: 29 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 11:41 am Post subject: |
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If the Bible was a true history, then AoB's argument would be irrefutable! The problem is that the Bible not history but a huge national saga. It is history as the Jewish priesthood would like it to have been, what they wanted the Jewish people in Babylonian exile to believe. The OT is largely a repetition of the pattern that the Hebrews are faithful to their god and do well, then fall away and get punished for it. It is know as 'Deuteronomic' history.
In the real world, nations rise up, are conquered and do some conquering themselves. That has happened to every nation and people in history. The history of the Hebrew/Jews is not exceptional, if one ignores the priestly theory that the ups and downs are due to faith or apostasy respectively. That aspect is not history - it is the priests doing their best to keep their jobs!
The Bible is deceptive in that it gives a very Hebrew/Jewish centric view of the region and history. If you study the history of the region using other sources, the Hebrew are almost insignificant players in the regions politics. The OT wildly exaggerates the significance and gradeur of the Solomonic and David 'empires'. The conquest of Canaan is written on a heroic scale to make the idea of a Hebrew/Jewish homeland more romantic, something for the Jews in exile to aim for.
As I say, the OT is not objective history. It is nationalist propaganda, showing all the defects one would expect of a human construct (factual and scientific errors, repetitions, contradictions etc etc). If you are interested in the history of the region (and who isn't), then the Bible is essential reading, but you have to remember why it was written, who wrote it and who it was written for. It isn't the simple truth, and in some cases it is almost pure fantasy. It certainly wasn't written for non-Jews - we are most definitely excluded!
Of course AoB won't believe that! But I have to ask it is at least possible that the Bible might be more a priestly interpretaion of events rather than a sober account of events?
(can someone start a new debate - this one is really going nowhere!)
Last edited by keithprosser2 on Sun Jul 25, 2010 12:00 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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angelobrazil
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| Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 11:57 am Post subject: |
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| keithprosser2 wrote: |
(can someone start a new debate - this one is really going nowhere!) |
your argument is not new. But you have to remember, that archaeology has so far confirmed everything written in the bible. Volks, mentioned in the bible, that there were no confirmation of their existence outside the bible, were confirmed through new aracheological findings. Figures like David, or Pilatus, or King Herodes, where confirmed through archaeology. So there is no reason to doubt about the historicity of the biblical account. There is abundant material existent. Some you can see here :
Archeology proves the historicity of the bible is true
http://elshamah.heavenforum.com/bible-christianity-f6/archeology-proves-the-historicity-of-the-bible-is-true-t190.htm |
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keithprosser2
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| Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 12:13 pm Post subject: |
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If my argument was new, it would be false.
I'm afraid the information linked to is irrelevant because It is not my contention that everything is the Bible is untrue. My point is that the bible presents a particular and questionable interpretation of events - good things happen when the Hebrew/Jews are faithful and bad things happen when they are not. There is no evidence anywhere to support the idea that the welfare of the Hebrew/Jews was due to whether their god was pleased with them or not. Are the ups and downs of the Egyptians (or Hittites, or even the British Empire) also due to their own gods whims, or do the viccissitudes of History have a divine explanation only for the Hebrew/Jews?
It is easy to show there really is a Baker Street in London, but that element of truth does not make the Hound of the Baskervilles a true story! For similar reason it would be absurd for the writers of the Bible to make the whole thing up, including inventing fictional places and people at every point. The "Archaeological proof of the Bible" is of the type that shows there is a Baker St in London, that there were hansom cabs and opium dens in London and so on. All that is so, but it makes no difference to whether the fanastical stuff is true.
Last edited by keithprosser2 on Sun Jul 25, 2010 12:26 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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angelobrazil
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| Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 12:23 pm Post subject: |
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| keithprosser2 wrote: | If my argument was new, it would be false.
I'm afraid the information linked to is irrelevant because It is not my contention that everything is the Bible is untrue. My point is that the bible presents a particular and questionable interpretation of events - good things happen when the Hebrew/Jews are faithful and bad things happen when they are not. There is no evidence anywhere to support the idea that the welfare of the Hebrew/Jews was due to whether their god was pleased with them or not. Are the ups and downs of the Egyptians (or Hittites, or even the British Empire) also due to their own gods whims, or do the viccissitudes of History have a divine explanation only for the Hebrew/Jews? It is easy to show there really is a Baker Street in London, but that element of truth does not make the Hound of the Baskervilles a true story! |
the difference is, you start from the pressuposition, the God of the bible does not exist, and therefore the spiritual implications of the actions of the hebrews did not exist either. I in the counterpart see everything from a different angle , aka. i believe the biblical account had exactly THAT reason. To show God leading with the hebrew people, and let this serve us to understand how God interacts with his folks. If God does not exist, and if he did not reveal himself through the biblical authors, you are right. If God exists, and if he revealed himself through the biblical authors, things change, and my standpoint makes perfectly sense. |
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Beau Tochs
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keithprosser2
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| Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 12:58 pm Post subject: |
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There is a principal called 'Occams razor'. The idea is that if you can do without some element, it is better to do so. The Bible can be explained in things we know exist - propaganda, nationalism, professional priethoods and so on. There is no need to have a God as well. We know that the Bible began to take something like its current form during the Babylonian Exile when there was the graest anger of the Jewish identity being lost forever. The Bible is - in my view - a brilliant composition by able propagandists who succeeded in their aim of preserving the Jewishness of the exiled Jews. Indeed, I rather suspect they re-defined Jewishness. I rather suspect that the Hebrew were not as faithful to Yahweh as it might appear from reading the OT!
Recall that the Hebrew royal power was destroyed in the exile. The priests would have been the natural leaders. We don't know much about conditions during the exile, but we do know that when it ended it was the priests who were in charge of the new Jewish state, not a reconstituted royalty. (Note that even in the Bible many Hebrew kings were not enthusiasitic Yahwists, so the priests had a reason not to give up their power!).
Even under the priests the Jews never regained their (legendary and possibly untrue) former glory, but were constantly under the rule of a succession of imperial masters. YHWH did not come their aid. The miraculous destruction of enemies did not occur - because they could not be shrouded in the mists of legends about times long ago.
By NT times, the Jews were reduced to a poor outpost of an empire, taxed into poverty with an aloof and remote priesthood, whose message of a glorious Jewish past had lost its relevance. The time was ripe for a new religion, and it arose. In Christianity, gone is the story of a glorious military past and of heroic conquest. Christianity is a religion of the defeated and powerless, glorifting meekness and poverty, which is all the Jews had in abundance! The practical and earthly rewards and punishments of the old religion are replaced by the intangible reward of posthumous heaven of the new.
There is no need to bring God into the story. It is a tale of human nature, of history and politics. I'd like to write more, but a post is not the place to do this subject justice. |
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angelobrazil
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Posts: 194
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| Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 1:29 pm Post subject: |
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| keithprosser2 wrote: | | There is a principal called 'Occams razor'. The idea is that if you can do without some element, it is better to do so. The Bible can be explained in things we know exist - propaganda, nationalism, professional priethoods and so on. |
you cannot apply occam's razor on everything. specially not on spiritual issues.
| Quote: | | There is no need to have a God as well. |
You might think that for yourself. I think however, you need God for everything. Without God, you would not exist.
| Quote: | | Christianity is a religion of the defeated and powerless, glorifting meekness and poverty, which is all the Jews had in abundance!. |
I didnt know that. Where does the bible write that ? |
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mortato
Experienced Mass Debater
Joined: 11 Oct 2006
Posts: 2221
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| Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 1:33 pm Post subject: |
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| angelobrazil wrote: | | mortato wrote: |
Do you honestly believe there are no "good" people in the world who are not Christians? What about people who do good deeds just for the sake of it and not for a reward from their god? Is this not better than people who only do good deeds because they believe their god is watching them? |
look around you, and you will find the answer :
Romans 3:9 What then? Are we better off? Certainly not,
for we have already charged that Jews and Greeks alike
are all under sin, 3:10 just as it is written:
“There is no one righteous, not even one,
3:11 there is no one who understands,
there is no one who seeks God.
3:12 All have turned away,
together they have become worthless;
there is no one who shows kindness, not even one.” 15
3:13 “Their throats are open graves, 16
they deceive with their tongues,
the poison of asps is under their lips.” 17
3:14 “Their mouths are 18 full of cursing and bitterness.” 19
3:15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood,
3:16 ruin and misery are in their paths,
3:17 and the way of peace they have not known.” 20
3:18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.” 21
3:19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under 22 the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world may be held accountable to God. 3:20 For no one is declared righteous before him 23 by the works of the law, 24 for through the law comes 25 the knowledge of sin. 3:21 But now 26 apart from the law the righteousness of God (which is attested by the law and the prophets) 27 has been disclosed – 3:22 namely, the righteousness of God through the faithfulness of Jesus Christ 28 for all who believe. For there is no distinction, 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. 3:24 But they are justified 29 freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. |
Oh dear. I'm glad I don't believe in your god. Seems like a nasty bitter and twisted individual. Blanket statements that slag of his supposedly own creation? If he wanted slaves then he should have built slaves.
Have you no self respect? Don't you trust your own judgement? How about getting up off your knees and taking some responsibility for your own thoughts and deeds sometime?
Is this what Christianity has become? Jesus's morality has been surpassed by the modern world so Christians have to try to drag everyone else back into some self loathing state?
Even if there was a god do you think he would be impressed by such pathetic self limiting behaviour. No wonder he doesn't make much appearances anymore. He is probably a bit embarrassed. |
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angelobrazil
Mass Debater
Joined: 13 Nov 2007
Posts: 194
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| Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 2:02 pm Post subject: |
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| mortato wrote: |
Oh dear. I'm glad I don't believe in your god. Seems like a nasty bitter and twisted individual. Blanket statements that slag of his supposedly own creation? If he wanted slaves then he should have built slaves.
Have you no self respect? Don't you trust your own judgement? How about getting up off your knees and taking some responsibility for your own thoughts and deeds sometime?
Is this what Christianity has become? Jesus's morality has been surpassed by the modern world so Christians have to try to drag everyone else back into some self loathing state?
Even if there was a god do you think he would be impressed by such pathetic self limiting behaviour. No wonder he doesn't make much appearances anymore. He is probably a bit embarrassed. |
Why do you not look around you ? And inside of you ?
Can you say, you have never sinned ? never lied ? never done anything wrong ?
The apostle Paul states just the obvious, i dont see why you object something, that is utmost clear.
If we would not sin, this world would be a paradise. |
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keithprosser2
Experienced Mass Debater
Joined: 29 Jul 2005
Posts: 3456
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| Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 2:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I didnt know that. Where does the bible write that ? |
I can only think you are being sarcastic, because everybody knows these two verses:
Matt 5:5 (Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth)
Matt 19:24 (It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.)
There are many others in the same vein - Jesus telling a man to give up his riches before he can follow Him, turning the other cheek, the widow's mite... the proud ancient Hebrew would not have been impressed by Christianity! The Hebrew weren't happy unless they were ritually sacrificing bulls and lambs with all the smoke and incense you could get. They wouldn't have any truck with Matt 18:20 (For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them.) |
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angelobrazil
Mass Debater
Joined: 13 Nov 2007
Posts: 194
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| Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 2:56 pm Post subject: |
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| keithprosser2 wrote: |
I can only think you are being sarcastic, because everybody knows these two verses:
Matt 5:5 (Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth)
Matt 19:24 (It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.)
There are many others in the same vein - Jesus telling a man to give up his riches before he can follow Him, turning the other cheek, the widow's mite... the proud ancient Hebrew would not have been impressed by Christianity! The Hebrew weren't happy unless they were ritually sacrificing bulls and lambs with all the smoke and incense you could get. They wouldn't have any truck with Matt 18:20 (For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them.) |
i am not being sarcastic at all. Christianity does not glorify meekness and poverty. It says in a other versicle :
1 Tim 6:8-11
‘But if we have food and clothing, we will be content with that. People who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge men into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and have pierced themselves with many griefs. But you, man of God, flee all this...’
So what imports, is not if someone is rich or poor. What is importat, is how someone relates to wealth and money. Do I have the money, or does the money have me ? The bible is against people, which are greedy, and want to get rich at any cost. Its according the bible perfectly fine to be rich, but material wealth needs to have the right position in the heart of us. It shall not be in first place in our lifes.
Ps 62:10
‘Though your riches increase do not set your heart on them.
2 Cor 9:11
You will be made rich in every way so that you can be generous on every occasion...
Command them (the rich) to do good, to be rich in good deeds, and to be generous and willing to share...
none of the scriptures quoted above imply that it is wrong to be wealthy. Nor that poverty is somehow virtuous. But wanna get rich at any cost, as one’s primary focus is a spiritually dangerous thing to do. |
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andkon
It's not a VOW of chastity...
Joined: 04 Aug 2005
Posts: 21666
Location: Turn around
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| Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 4:41 pm Post subject: |
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| angelobrazil wrote: | | There is no objective morality for whom is a atheist. Theoretically, you can rape a small child, and moreally speaking, there is absolutely nothing wrong with it. |
Or if you read Numbers 31 from the Bible.
| angelobrazil wrote: | | Its like eating a ice cream. If God does not exist, no objective moral values exist. |
And that's a problem because _____________. |
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andkon
It's not a VOW of chastity...
Joined: 04 Aug 2005
Posts: 21666
Location: Turn around
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| Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 5:19 pm Post subject: |
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| angelobrazil wrote: | “There is no one righteous, not even one,
3:11 there is no one who understands,
there is no one who seeks God.
3:12 All have turned away,
together they have become worthless;
there is no one who shows kindness, not even one.” 15 |
And that's why you're a loon. |
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