Debate Unlimited Forum

[joss]

[keithprosser2]

[Wolverine]

[joss]

[keithprosser2]

I agree - the silence is deafening. That is worrying, but I don't conclude that it is because the majority of Muslims support the position of the extremists. This whole thing is a serious problem and it needs careful consideration not populism and knee-jerks which is what we mostly get. We can't stop people being - or calling themselves - Muslim and following their cultural traditions to an extent (if indeed we want to limit such freedoms it is a practical and political non-starter).

I reiterate that I do not deny that Islam presents a threat - people are dieing (quite recently over 70 people died in my adopted new home of Kampala). I just think it is not a problem that needs intelligent application of a scalpel, not wild swings with a sledgehammer to fix.

We have a heavy mix of religion, politics, tradition, religion and - sadly - xenophobia and bigotry. Cool heads will be needed!

[Wolverine]

[joss]

Okay. But until I have personally met enough of these moderate Muslims, I'm going to have to go with what I've seen and what I've read. It wouldn't be right to make judgements any other way.

It seems to be a valid criticism of moderate Islam that its battle with the fanatics is over the interpretation of certain passages of the Koran. Christianity, on the other hand, has moved on. The battle between moderate and fanatical Christians is not just over interpretation, but over relevance - whether certain passages are intended to be taken as instructions for modern Christians. Without that I'm not sure I'd say that Christianity had any real moderation. It seems to be pretty important that the religion can adapt to modernity, and interpretation alone is pretty insufficient.

I do hate being put in the position of making Christianity look progressive!

[Wolverine]

[keithprosser2]

I don't think there is a problem with the limits of interpretation. People are wonderfully flexible! There are two sides to the question. One is an academic one - why are contemporary Islamic states more reactionary than contemporary Christian ones? Why did secularism triumph in the West and not the East? That is an interesting debate that I think we can have sometime (I have my theories!), but there is also the more pressing and practical immediate problem of real and escalating friction between Christian and Islamic countries and Christian and Islamic people within countries. For now, I'd like to stick with the latter. We can't do anything about the past, the future is up to us.

A few decades ago the problem was clearly related to the political and nationalistic conflict between Jews and Palestinian Arabs rather that religion per se. There were outrages - such as the Munich Olympics - but I don't think relations between Islam and the West were as bad then as they are now. The problem now is not what it was in the 70's and 80's - now, it's personal.

Given that Islam is 1400 years old, my question now is what it has been throughout - why is this all happening now? I wish I could give an answer, because then I might be able to suggest a solution. No doubt someone somewhere would suggest as a 'solution' rounding up all Muslims and deporting them (or something worse!) - is it absurd to suggest that such barbaric thinking exists in the 21st century? I don't think so. The hardest part - making people think that some group is 'not like us' and just because X is a Muslim he or she is not 'us' and so subject to oppression - has largely been achieved. Doubt over the existence of Muslims who are not fanatics is the very subject of this thread! In many minds, a Muslim = an enemy, irrespective of any other consideration.

Intelligent people - and we on DU are intelligent - will realise the difference between a war on Islam (a meme) and on Muslims (people). But Rwanda, Srebenica and a host of other examples show that what intelligent people know sometimes makes very little difference.

[Wolverine]

[keithprosser2]

[Star]

[keithprosser2]

I have no intention of doing so. I do not need to live in those countries to appreciate that Islam is not a good basis on which to run a modern country. It is however interesting that in the list we find Saudi Arabia and Somalia - places that have very little in common!

It is not my intention to defend Islam as body of faith or as a basis for a society or culture and I don't think I have. My point is to emphasise that fundamentalist/Jihadist Islam is the enemy (of ordinary Muslims as well as us), not the vast majority of Muslims, and certainly not the bloke running the newsagent at the corner of the street! Islam is not naturally a progressive religion and when it gets power, it's potential for evil comes to the fore. I am surprised that Mr Star does not realise that everyone on this board agrees with him about that snd thinks (or posts as if he thinks) there are defenders and apologists for Islam on DU. There aren't - we are all on his side!

That said, it is my view that it is ordinary man and women in Saudi Arabia and Somalia who are the real victims of fundamentalist Islam. I think we should be sympathising and supporting the real victims of Islam, not oppressing and demonising them.

Let me say once more for emphasis - I agree with Mr Star that fundamentalist Islam should not be allowed to gain political power - it is reactionary, nasty and without any real redeeming features. But that isn't a reason to hate Muslims en bloc. Forunately I don't think there are any Muslim haters on DU, but it is important to keep the line betweem hating Islam and hating Muslims indiscriminately always clearly in mind. There are those who would muddy the distinction, and along that route lies ruin.

[joss]

All well and good, but until I hear more vocal outcry against Islamic extremism - in all its forms (military, political, societal), I'm going to defend my right to lump together Muslims as willing participants, or at least unwilling dissidents.

The solution to the problem of Islam is to encourage an Islamic Enlightenment - by encouraging moderates. But that isn't the same thing as pretending that Islam, and Muslims, are something they are not. We must be honest with the facts. Do young British Muslims want to go to Pakistani madrassahs because of the West's oppressive militarism, or is it a teensy weensy bit because their religion is fucking mental?

[Wolverine]

[Star]

[Jenni]

[Skep]

[Potsy]

KP2 said:

[andkon]

[Teufelhunden]

[Cloud Walker]

[keithprosser2]

[wageslave]

Surely all religion will tend towards marginalisation with increased education. In the West, religious belief has retreated as our understanding of science has grown. However, in the vast swathes of the globe where Islam holds sway, the citizens are kept deliberately uneducated, as it suits the purpose of their masters.

[flammifer]

Hogwash. In most countries around the world, Muslim or not, education and literacy have been increasing. Why would governments be investing so much in education if they were trying to keep their citizens ignorant?