 |
Debate Unlimited Forum
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Christianity from Gabby's perspective makes me: |
| Want to sign up to be a priest/nun |
|
3% |
[ 1 ] |
| Want to go to a confessional tomorrow |
|
0% |
[ 0 ] |
| Feel neutral about catholicism |
|
6% |
[ 2 ] |
| Decide Catholicism is not for me |
|
6% |
[ 2 ] |
| Dislike Catholicism intensely |
|
45% |
[ 14 ] |
| Want to throttle the next catholic I meet |
|
38% |
[ 12 ] |
|
| Total Votes : 31 |
|
| Author |
Message |
tknorriss
Experienced Mass Debater
Joined: 28 Jul 2005
Posts: 1899
Location: Christchurch New Zealand
|
 Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 8:57 am Post subject: Is Gabby a good witness for catholicism? |
 |
|
I have been trying to tell Gabby that she is wasting her (and everyone elses) time trying to "evangelize" on Debates Unlimited. I have tried to tell her that the best approach a theist can take is to show that theists can be fair-minded and open to the ideas of others.
I would like others to convey to Gabby whether she is doing a good job for her side or not.
Perhaps she could take the results of this poll to her local priest and show him what a great job she has been doing. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
flammifer
Goatmaster
Joined: 28 Jul 2005
Posts: 2111
Location: Paris
|
| Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 11:06 am Post subject: |
|
|
I would have chosen "lose respect for catholicism", I've met plenty of smart and open-minded catholics. "Decide Catholicism is not for me" might have been the closest, but I wouldn't make that kind of decision based on a stupid/fanatical catholic.
The only way Gabby could encorage me to be catholic would be if I decided to be a priest just to try to put some sense into the faithful (not by being a "traitor" to the church, just by being tolerant and "liberal"). Unfortunately, I'm not that keen on altar boys, so I'll have to wait for them to go back on the celibacy thing.
(And I voted "Feel neutral about catholicism", I don't know who voted for signing up to be a priest/nun) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
andkon
It's not a VOW of chastity...
Joined: 04 Aug 2005
Posts: 21406
Location: Turn around
|
| Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 11:22 am Post subject: Re: Is Gabby a good witness for catholicism? |
|
|
| tknorriss wrote: | | Is Gabby a good witness for catholicism? |
Yes, I want to become a nun as soon as possible. (Note: I did not vote for that.) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Star
Experienced Mass Debater
Joined: 08 Aug 2005
Posts: 2690
Location: Canada
|
| Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 11:32 am Post subject: |
|
|
I voted “Want to sign up to be a priest/nun” just to encourage Gabriel to keep doing what she has been doing after I realized that Gabriel is doing a favor to humanity by showing what a repugnant and stupid ideology Catholicism is.
Tony’s survey question is a sign that Gabriel is an embarrassment even to theists. And this is what we atheists are looking for as one of our objectives to show that religion is an embarrassment to humanity to begin with.
As a matter of fact, we should encourage three people at DU to keep fighting for their faith as long as they can. I call them the triangle of Dark Age mentality in the 21st Century – Aslan, Gabriel, and Abdul. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
tknorriss
Experienced Mass Debater
Joined: 28 Jul 2005
Posts: 1899
Location: Christchurch New Zealand
|
| Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 11:51 am Post subject: |
|
|
I am seriously wondering if Gabby is actually some sort of CIA plot to bring down the catholic church around the world. Perhaps Gabby is actually a kind of computer bot akin to the "God bot" that Nocopilot referred us to. Perhaps it is designed to speel out catholic dogma to every question that is asked.
I can imagine that there might be "Gabby's" infiltrating forums all over the world at the moment, starting an online revolution against the catholic church. Perhaps the objective of the thing is to get everyone upset here. Perhaps who ever is behind Gabby is chortling with delight at the moment, seeing that there plans are being fulfilled. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Gabriel
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 7:45 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Dear tknorris,
| Quote: | | I have been trying to tell Gabby that she is wasting her (and everyone elses) time trying to "evangelize" on Debates Unlimited. I have tried to tell her that the best approach a theist can take is to show that theists can be fair-minded and open to the ideas of others. |
Thank you for all your advice. The problem is that you don't represent my views. I am a Catholic and if people ask me what Catholics believe, I'm going to be sincere and as clear as possible. If you don't agree with what I say, you are free to argue your case.
| Quote: | I would like others to convey to Gabby whether she is doing a good job for her side or not.
|
I'm presenting a point of view which I hold as true. I'm happy to argue my case. but it's certainly not my concern if others refuse to accept it. He who has ears , let him hear.
| Quote: | | Perhaps she could take the results of this poll to her local priest and show him what a great job she has been doing. |
You are free to be ruled by the opinion of others, but I think it's rather foolish and cowardly to compromise beliefs just to fit in out of fear of being criticized..
| Quote: | | I am seriously wondering if Gabby is actually some sort of CIA plot to bring down the catholic church around the world. Perhaps Gabby is actually a kind of computer bot akin to the "God bot" that Nocopilot referred us to. Perhaps it is designed to speel out catholic dogma to every question that is asked. |
lol! tknorris, how many times do I have to explain to you that I am Catholic? If you have a problem with Catholic teachings, then argue your case; if not, be silent already. I would be happy to explain to you the Catholic faith and why it teaches what it does about Christ, the Church and morality. If you think I'm stupid for believeing what I do, then you think Catholicism is stupid. But that's not an argument, it's just a tiny little opinion is a vast sea of opinions. Your authority is nothing more than your opinion. My authority is the Catholic Church whom I claim was founded by Christ Himself, who is The Truth, The Way and The Life. If you have an argument against my beliefs I welcome the debate. I am very happy to explain Christianity and the nature of sin to you, and why something is "good" or bad" using logical explanations.
| Quote: | | I can imagine that there might be "Gabby's" infiltrating forums all over the world at the moment, starting an online revolution against the catholic church. Perhaps the objective of the thing is to get everyone upset here. Perhaps who ever is behind Gabby is chortling with delight at the moment, seeing that there plans are being fulfilled. |
lol, well, I suppose you would have plenty of criticism for John the Baptist, St. Paul, and all the Apostles for the way they presented their belief. The problem with some brands of Christianity today is that there are too many weaklings, who are afraid to stand up for what they believe in and they run and hide out of fear of being criticized. There's nothing worse than a lukewarm Christian. You're better off being an atheist..
Gab |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
davep
Not the resident astrologer
Joined: 29 Jul 2005
Posts: 8533
Location: South Lincolnshire, England
|
| Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 8:35 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Gabriel, replying to tknorris, wrote: | | Your authority is nothing more than your opinion. My authority is the Catholic Church whom I claim was founded by Christ Himself |
So your authority is nothing more than your opinion. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Martin Willett
Actually I DO
own this place
Joined: 26 Jul 2005
Posts: 15420
Location: England
|
| Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 8:37 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Or the opinion s/he struggles to hold. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
philbo
Experienced Mass Debater
Joined: 30 Jul 2005
Posts: 3752
Location: England
|
| Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 8:42 pm Post subject: |
|
|
My word, those *are* big dildos in that picture...
| Gabriel wrote: |
There's nothing worse than a lukewarm Christian.
|
...said one cannibal to the other. Or possibly one lion? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
tknorriss
Experienced Mass Debater
Joined: 28 Jul 2005
Posts: 1899
Location: Christchurch New Zealand
|
| Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 9:46 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Gabby,
You seem to want to be staunch to your beliefs and see that as a virtue.
I don't see a problem with that all. However, there are ways to be staunch without getting everyones' back up.
Here is how I would be staunch on a particular issue from a Catholic perspective.
| Quote: | My perspective as a Catholic on this issue is....
As non-catholics/atheists you may not agree with this perspective, so this is why I think it is a good idea... |
Your problem is that you premise most things you say with a lot of implicit assumptions that you have not justified. Essentially, they are just your opinion, or the opinion of someone else, or the Catholic organisation. The problem here is that few agree with those opinions in the first place. Thus, they come across as unsupported assertions which gets up everyones' nose.
I am not sure what your background is, however, it seems to me that you have not had much experience in critical thinking. I don't know if you have ever had to do a "discussion" type essay where you have to consider various perspectives, make a case for each, and then say why you think one is better than another. Well, this is the type of contribution you need to be able to make here.
When I try to show I understand things from an atheist's perspective, it is not that I am being a "watered down Christian". It is that I am trying to show some consideration to my atheist friends by trying to show that I am attempting to listen to their views, and that I value them as people.
Try to imagine yourself as an atheist (if you can). Imagine what it would be like to be an atheist reading your posts. If you are able to do this you might be able to see where you are going wrong.
If you can't, then I think you need to seriously consider whether you can continue here. Look at the poll results. At the moment you are a liability to you Catholic faith. You should be aiming to make people feel better about Catholicism, not worse.
Look, it is not at all easy making a meaningful contribution here. There are a lot of very bright people who will criticize everything you say; demand explanations for every point etc. Well, thats the price you have to pay if you want to come here. Remember, this is an ATHEIST site. You have to respect their rules, as you would expect them to do if they came to a Catholic site.
Have a good think about things and decide what you want to do. It seems to me you are very close to being kicked off, so you will need to change in a hurry if you want to continue. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
andkon
It's not a VOW of chastity...
Joined: 04 Aug 2005
Posts: 21406
Location: Turn around
|
| Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 9:48 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Gabriel wrote: | | Thank you for all your advice. The problem is that you don't represent my views. I am a Catholic and if people ask me what Catholics believe, I'm going to be sincere and as clear as possible. If you don't agree with what I say, you are free to argue your case. |
The problem is most of the time no one asked you for the Catholic view. You merely showed up at DU spouting religious crap without debate.
| Gabriel wrote: | | I'm presenting a point of view which I hold as true. I'm happy to argue my case. but it's certainly not my concern if others refuse to accept it. He who has ears , let him hear. |
No, you spout assertions without any evidence. What you do is the very different from arguing.
| Gabriel wrote: | | My authority is the Catholic Church whom I claim was founded by Christ Himself, who is The Truth, The Way and The Life. |
Unfounded assertions without evidence.
| Gabriel wrote: | | If you have an argument against my beliefs I welcome the debate. I am very happy to explain Christianity and the nature of sin to you, and why something is "good" or bad" using logical explanations. |
Debate and explain are two very different things. You never debate, you always spout bullshit.
| Gabriel wrote: | | There's nothing worse than a lukewarm Christian. You're better off being an atheist.. |
Unfounded assertions without evidence. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
andkon
It's not a VOW of chastity...
Joined: 04 Aug 2005
Posts: 21406
Location: Turn around
|
| Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 9:50 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| tknorriss wrote: | | You have to respect their rules, as you would expect them to do if they came to a Catholic site. |
Gabriel, which Catholic site would put up with atheistic evangelization for three straight months? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Qaliber
Experienced Mass Debater
Joined: 29 Jul 2005
Posts: 505
Location: Memphis, TN
|
| Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 9:50 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Gabriel wrote: | | I'm presenting a point of view which I hold as true. I'm happy to argue my case. but it's certainly not my concern if others refuse to accept it. He who has ears , let him hear. |
It's convenient to mask your disregard for the manner in which you display your faith by capping your statement with a one-off representation of Scripture, however that does not speak to the issue I have confronted you on consistently. The issue of identifying the point where the problems of acceptance cease to be the willingess of your audience to listen/hear, and begin to become a matter of the method in which you deliver. I have yet to see anyone be able to carry on a beneficial exchange with you, and that includes people that share some of your same beliefs. Again I pose to you Gab, at what point do you begin to consider that the problem may lie with you rather than there being a problem with everyone you speak with?
| Gabriel wrote: | | The problem with some brands of Christianity today is that there are too many weaklings, who are afraid to stand up for what they believe in and they run and hide out of fear of being criticized. There's nothing worse than a lukewarm Christian. You're better off being an atheist.. |
That is just tacky. TK challenged your methods, and you return with an attack on him personally. You really have no right. The picture you associate with your implication is just plain ignorant. To suggest that someone is any less passionate about their faith because they have not physically died for it is ludicrous. By that logic there is no reality in the faith you have been standing for on these boards, because you are doing so from the freedom of your American home while your brothers and sisters in Christ are languishing in a Chinese prison for having a few pages of the Bible. In that scenarion, my dear, you are the one in the stands...what say you now? It is an even further expression of dellusion to imply that this picture represents TK because he doesn't agree with your method of audience alienation when he discusses his faith. Respecting that the person you are talking to does not share your worldview does not make you lukewarm. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Crowley
Freudian Slip
Joined: 19 Feb 2006
Posts: 1285
|
| Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 9:56 pm Post subject: |
|
|
gone
Last edited by Crowley on Sat Feb 09, 2008 5:53 pm; edited 2 times in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
tknorriss
Experienced Mass Debater
Joined: 28 Jul 2005
Posts: 1899
Location: Christchurch New Zealand
|
| Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 10:14 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Gabriel,
Following my previous post I have one more piece of advice for you.
I think you need to see yourself in a similar situation to an alcholic.
Before you can be helped you need to admit you have a problem. If you are prepared to admit that you have not been functioning well here and that you want to learn to do better, then I think people would be much more accepting of you and be prepared to help you learn to do this debating stuff better. I certainly would.
However, despite all the advice you have been given, you don't seem to have taken the slightest bit of notice up until now, judging by the fact that your online behaviour has not changed in the slightest. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
andkon
It's not a VOW of chastity...
Joined: 04 Aug 2005
Posts: 21406
Location: Turn around
|
| Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 11:44 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| tknorriss wrote: | | Before you can be helped you need to admit you have a problem. If you are prepared to admit that you have not been functioning well here and that you want to learn to do better, then I think people would be much more accepting of you and be prepared to help you learn to do this debating stuff better. I certainly would. |
I think it'd best for us all if she accepted cold turkey ala Rule 13. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Gabriel
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 6:23 am Post subject: |
|
|
davep said:
| Quote: | Gabriel, replying to tknorris, wrote:
Your authority is nothing more than your opinion. My authority is the Catholic Church whom I claim was founded by Christ Himself |
| Quote: | | So your authority is nothing more than your opinion. |
No. The Catholic Church makes that claim. I am a Catholic, and I fully concur.The Catholic Church is my authority on truth about God. Thus my views are Catholic.
tknorris said:
Gabby,
| Quote: | You seem to want to be staunch to your beliefs and see that as a virtue.
I don't see a problem with that all. However, there are ways to be staunch without getting everyones' back up. |
So what. andkon has his own approach which I think is rather childish. I don't hear you giving him any advice, nor do I get all upset that I want to ban him..
| Quote: | | Your problem is that you premise most things you say with a lot of implicit assumptions that you have not justified. |
Like "God is a logical impossibility"? Or all the insults that are said against me, Jesus Christ, Catholicism? lol. Don't make me laugh anymore..
| Quote: | | Essentially, they are just your opinion, or the opinion of someone else, or the Catholic organisation. |
How many times do I have to explain that my views are Catholic because I am Catholic? lol! I'm not a freelance Bible-interpreter. The problem here is that people hate the views of the Catholic Church. If I changed my views on same-sex marriages, or declined to share my views, I would be praised and made a jolly member of this little group. But when I dare to point out why the Church teaches why it is wrong, then everyone gets angry and calls me names. The only way you are ever going to convince these people to your Christian views (which you choose to keep concealed) through your 12-step program is when you denounce Christianity itself. is If that's your approach then go for it. I'm not telling you how to discuss the issues. I have a position which everyone disagrees with. So what. I give my reasons, if people want to disagree that's okay too.
| Quote: | I am not sure what your background is, however, it seems to me that you have not had much experience in critical thinking. I don't know if you have ever had to do a "discussion" type essay where you have to consider various perspectives, make a case for each, and then say why you think one is better than another. Well, this is the type of contribution you need to be able to make here.
|
I have 8 different people asking me multiple questions, I can't always get to all of them right away. But my views are explained with arguments and analogies. I can't help it if people disagree. That's the nature of debate..
| Quote: | | When I try to show I understand things from an atheist's perspective, it is not that I am being a "watered down Christian". It is that I am trying to show some consideration to my atheist friends by trying to show that I am attempting to listen to their views, and that I value them as people. |
This is wonderful. By the way, are you also going to tell andkon calling me a cunt? lol! I am upsetting the forum because my approach is wrong? What a silly observation. The fact is, most of my posts are merely answering questions. I understand the atheist's perspective perfectly well. I listen to their views, but if they ask me a question I'm going to answer it, regardless if it's going to upset their world view. It's nothing personal, just a different opinion. If they can't handle it, then they should all get me banned so my views don't upset them anymore.
| Quote: | Try to imagine yourself as an atheist (if you can). Imagine what it would be like to be an atheist reading your posts. If you are able to do this you might be able to see where you are going wrong. If you can't, then I think you need to seriously consider whether you can continue here.
|
So I need to stop insulting andkon, philbo, NoCoPilot and valupak with my views? If people can't stand it when I disagree with their view, well, then maybe they should skip my responses. I realize andkon has set a very high bar for me to emulate but I could never hope to achieve such dignity and poise in the debate forum.  tknorris, your advice is a joke, simply because you don't pinpoint nthe absurdities of others in this forum.
| Quote: | | Look at the poll results. At the moment you are a liability to you Catholic faith. |
This is an idiotic statement in the fuill sense of the word. The fact that I use Catholic teaching to express my views is a liability to Catholicism. I suppose Jesus Christ shouldn't have upset the pharisees either. lol! Please.
| Quote: | | You should be aiming to make people feel better about Catholicism, not worse. |
Nonsense. I don't compromise my beliefs in order to be loved. Neither did Christ, as he explicitly said: "If the world hates you, know that it hated me before it hated you"..
The only way some people would feel good about Catholicism is if it changed its teachings on morality, and denounced Christ as a charlatan. I am giving reasons why the Catholic Church teaches what it does. I am not interested in changing Church doctrine just to please theists or atheists alike. The pope would give you the same reasons I give you. If you don't like my argument, well, then dismiss me and ignore my posts. Is this hard to do? Just, don't read my posts. I don't read much of yours unless you have a question for me. I'm too busy answering 18 different questions.
| Quote: | | Look, it is not at all easy making a meaningful contribution here. There are a lot of very bright people who will criticize everything you say; demand explanations for every point etc. Well, thats the price you have to pay if you want to come here. Remember, this is an ATHEIST site. |
Oh? I thought this was "Debate Unlimited" website, and "atheisms" was one of the forums. Is the topic of atheism only for atheists?
| Quote: | | You have to respect their rules, as you would expect them to do if they came to a Catholic site. |
What rules did I break? Give my opinion? Upset andkon? Call him names? lol!!
| Quote: | Have a good think about things and decide what you want to do. It seems to me you are very close to being kicked off, so you will need to change in a hurry if you want to continue.
|
Nonsense. Mr. Willett is can ban me as soon as he feels like it. It's his site and he has a right to do as he sees fit. I'm certainly not going to imitate andkon, or hide my views in order to not get banned. If I get locked out, well, I get locked out. But the reality is that I could be the foulest most idiotic atheist in this forum, and the subject of banning wouldn't even be pondered. But this is Mr. Willett's sandbox, and if he doesn't want to let me play in it, that's his call. I will accept my fate.
Qaliber said: | Quote: | | It's convenient to mask your disregard for the manner in which you display your faith by capping your statement with a one-off representation of Scripture, however that does not speak to the issue I have confronted you on consistently. |
Nonsense. I don't go around telling andkon or any other person how to post. And neither do I hear you telling him or other people how to post either. I'm getting multiple questions from 8 different people, and I give a point of view that others find offensive I get threatened with being banned. What is this, the Inquisition? ;)
| Quote: | | The issue of identifying the point where the problems of acceptance cease to be the willingess of your audience to listen/hear, and begin to become a matter of the method in which you deliver. |
My method? What did I say that I doidn't give an argument for? People are free to disagree. In fact, if people get so upset, what's so hard about ignoring my answers? For example, Mr Star is rather shallow so I skip his posts altogether. It's easy! Another example is ankon. He gets so angry and I feel like giving hima hug, but then the barrage of insults is silly, so I sjust skip his posts. No big deal. It's really simple. In fact, if people would stop asking me questions I wouldn't be posting half as much as I do.
| Quote: | | I have yet to see anyone be able to carry on a beneficial exchange with you, and that includes people that share some of your same beliefs. |
So what. People keep asking me questions, I will certainly give my Catholic perspective. I don't care if they disagree. I am willing to hear their argument and explain why mine may differ, but get upset? lol. How silly. What is this? InDenial Anonymous, wher all differing opinions causes a psychotic fit?
| Quote: | | Again I pose to you Gab, at what point do you begin to consider that the problem may lie with you rather than there being a problem with everyone you speak with? |
The problem is not with me, but rather with my Catholicism. I speak frankly on issues like same-sex unions and pornography and the like, and people call me a bigot. I'm answering stupid questions like "what if a man has a sex change and wants to become a nun, then repents of having had a sex change, would he be allowed to be a nun? Why not??" These are idiotic questions which I take the time to answer giving 3 different reasons why such a person would not be allowed to be a nun, yet tknorris doesn't like my explanation. So what?. Disagree with me and live with it. Stop whining.
For exampler, I read tknorris' debate in "the Arena", and I thought arguments were rather shallow, and I thought of a number of things that he could have said; but I don't go around telling people how and what they should say. I find andkon terribly silly, so does Aslan. Some of andkon's antics are rather silly and base, yet I don't hear you or tknorris furling your eyebrows in disapproval and giving him advice. This whole thing is silly. If you don't like my posts SKIP THEM. I happen to find your posts rather, well. nevermind. But I don't go around telling you how to make them more profound. That's not my business.
| Quote: | Gabriel wrote:
| Quote: | | The problem with some brands of Christianity today is that there are too many weaklings, who are afraid to stand up for what they believe in and they run and hide out of fear of being criticized. There's nothing worse than a lukewarm Christian. You're better off being an atheist.. |
Qaliber responded: | Quote: | | That is just tacky. TK challenged your methods, and you return with an attack on him personally. You really have no right. The picture you associate with your implication is just plain ignorant. To suggest that someone is any less passionate about their faith because they have not physically died for it is ludicrous. |
|
What I said is very true. Not necessaryly about tknorris, but about people who are Christians, yet ashamed of Christ; not in words but in actions, which is worse. But it's not me saying it, its Christ Himself. But whoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father who is in heaven But only God knows who does what. I'm just saying that there are people who are rather ashamed of their Christianity for fear of being criticized.
| Quote: | | By that logic there is no reality in the faith you have been standing for on these boards, because you are doing so from the freedom of your American home while your brothers and sisters in Christ are languishing in a Chinese prison for having a few pages of the Bible. In that scenarion, my dear, you are the one in the stands...what say you now? |
I thank God for my freedom. There are people who make great sacrifices to practice their Christianity in such countries, and that's what makes the denial or embarrasment of being a Christian in a free country so terrible, when, in a country where religion and free speech are a right, some people are still afraid to claim to be Christian, not for fear of persecution, but rather for fear of public opinion. This is shameful.
| Quote: | | It is an even further expression of dellusion to imply that this picture represents TK because he doesn't agree with your method of audience alienation when he discusses his faith.Respecting that the person you are talking to does not share your worldview does not make you lukewarm. |
Elsewhere tknorris implied that I was idiotic because I was discussing certain topics that get people riled up, such as same-sex unions, etc. In other words, if someone asks you about such topics, do not discuss them. This is silly. He doesn't have to discuss them, but if I am asked a question I will be sincere with my views and explain the Catholic argument. If that ruffles feathers, well, then skip my posts. It's not a hard thing to do.
Crowley said:
| Quote: | Gabriel,
Easy question...A simple Yes or No will suffice. |
No
tknorris said:
| Quote: | Gabriel,
Following my previous post I have one more piece of advice for you. |
More advice?
| Quote: | | I think you need to see yourself in a similar situation to an alcholic. |
Okay. hiccup!* ;)
| Quote: | | Before you can be helped you need to admit you have a problem. |
My problem is that "my approach is not pleasant enough? So I should emulate andkon or valupak? This is silly.
| Quote: | | If you are prepared to admit that you have not been functioning well here and that you want to learn to do better, then I think people would be much more accepting of you and be prepared to help you learn to do this debating stuff better. I certainly would. |
This would be great if you would apply it to your own approach. You made many assumptions about Catholic priests, celibacy and pedophiles which were flatly untrue. I provided you with plenty of evidence and you ignored my post. I didn't get upset. Nor did I whine or give you advice.
| Quote: | | owever, despite all the advice you have been given, you don't seem to have taken the slightest bit of notice up until now, judging by the fact that your online behaviour has not changed in the slightest. |
People are free to challenge my positions with an argument, and I will respond with mine. If you disagree with what I say, give me an argument; don't whine about a better approach to deliver my point of view or worry about me hurting someone's feelings with my beliefs. Oh by the way, when one of my views angers andkon again, and he calls me a cunt once again, I will see to it that I apologize to him to make sure his feelings are not hurt.
tknorris, I think you need to give less advice, and challenge my views instead if you disagree with them. If not, I am going to have to politely ask you to be silent, or get me banned from this Unlimited Debate website for not using an approach which you approve of.
Gab |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Wolverine
Experienced Mass Debater
Joined: 16 Mar 2006
Posts: 4586
Location: Germany
|
| Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 7:29 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Gabriel wrote: | | Thank you for all your advice. The problem is that you don't represent my views. I am a Catholic and if people ask me what Catholics believe, I'm going to be sincere and as clear as possible. |
I am catholic, too. But I never heard you say anything about what I believe. How can that be? I believe in nothing you say, I don't believe in god, nor that Jesus was his son. Yet I am catholic. So if you tell people what catholics believe, please bear in mind that this catholic does not believe in god.
You have no idea about what catholics believe. You only know some of what they ought to believe. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Milo
Mass Debater
Joined: 29 Jul 2005
Posts: 298
Location: Oregon
|
| Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 7:30 am Post subject: |
|
|
Fucking hell Gab! USE THE GODDAMN QUOTE TAG.
Your posts are already an assault on the senses, but the lack of appreciation for what you put others through to try and extrapolate the intended message is simply a travesty.
Here it is for the millionth time: [quote="Poster's name here"]Poster's text here[/quote] |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Milo
Mass Debater
Joined: 29 Jul 2005
Posts: 298
Location: Oregon
|
| Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 7:40 am Post subject: |
|
|
This is what the beginning of your post could have looked like:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
| davep wrote: | | Gabriel, replying to tknorris, wrote: | | Your authority is nothing more than your opinion. My authority is the Catholic Church whom I claim was founded by Christ Himself |
So your authority is nothing more than your opinion. |
No. The Catholic Church makes that claim. I am a Catholic, and I fully concur.The Catholic Church is my authority on truth about God. Thus my views are Catholic.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Do you see how much easier it is to read; to understand who said what? Do you understand why we get pissed when you continue to disregard Internet forum etiquette? If you do not understand, you are an imbecile. If you do understand, then you are intentionally being difficult. Either way - please stop.
| Gabriel wrote: | | So what. andkon has his own approach which I think is rather childish. I don't hear you giving him any advice, nor do I get all upset that I want to ban him.. |
Actually TK has. I have also said in the past that I occassionally disagree with andkons methods. However, I feel he is justified is conducting himself as he does with respect to you.
| Gabriel wrote: | | Like "God is a logical impossibility"? |
Many posters have defined the steps through which they have arrived to the conclusion that "God is a logical impossibility." You have not sufficiently countered their reasoning, and one cannot expect to continually post over and over again the same thing. It stands to reason that since you have created a playing field where statements with no (or little) weight are the norm, your criticism is misplaced.
| Gabriel wrote: | | ...Or all the insults that are said against me, Jesus Christ, Catholicism? lol. Don't make me laugh anymore.. |
When you came to this atheist forum initially, where did you see it ending?
| Gabriel wrote: | | How many times do I have to explain that my views are Catholic because I am Catholic? lol! I'm not a freelance Bible-interpreter. The problem here is that people hate the views of the Catholic Church. If I changed my views on same-sex marriages, or declined to share my views, I would be praised and made a jolly member of this little group. But when I dare to point out why the Church teaches why it is wrong, then everyone gets angry and calls me names. The only way you are ever going to convince these people to your Christian views (which you choose to keep concealed) through your 12-step program is when you denounce Christianity itself. is If that's your approach then go for it. I'm not telling you how to discuss the issues. I have a position which everyone disagrees with. So what. I give my reasons, if people want to disagree that's okay too. |
I smell a wannabe martyr.
| Gabriel wrote: | | I have 8 different people asking me multiple questions, I can't always get to all of them right away. But my views are explained with arguments and analogies. I can't help it if people disagree. That's the nature of debate.. |
It would be easier if you made your responses concise, and stopped using so many fake stories. There were no 'arguments' that presented anything ground-breaking from your part - and all counters to your 'arguments' lead directly, and without fail, to the brick wall that is your opinion, and the deluded opinions of others.
| Gabriel wrote: | | This is wonderful. By the way, are you also going to tell andkon calling me a cunt? lol! I am upsetting the forum because my approach is wrong? What a silly observation. The fact is, most of my posts are merely answering questions. I understand the atheist's perspective perfectly well. I listen to their views, but if they ask me a question I'm going to answer it, regardless if it's going to upset their world view. It's nothing personal, just a different opinion. If they can't handle it, then they should all get me banned so my views don't upset them anymore. |
You do not understand how to debate, contrary to what you would have us believe.
| Gabriel wrote: | | So I need to stop insulting andkon, philbo, NoCoPilot and valupak with my views? If people can't stand it when I disagree with their view, well, then maybe they should skip my responses. I realize andkon has set a very high bar for me to emulate but I could never hope to achieve such dignity and poise in the debate forum. tknorris, your advice is a joke, simply because you don't pinpoint nthe absurdities of others in this forum. |
You do not understand how to debate. To debate is to disagree, but to present arguments for each side starting from common ground - precisely what TK does. You do not demonstrate sufficient understanding of the debate method as illustrated by the majority of your posts. "Your arguments are discombobulated" - Gabriel. You were saying that the poster's ideas were of poor quality, but you did not explain why you thought so; which is exactly what one must do in a debate.
I got tired of reading your post.
Last edited by Milo on Thu May 18, 2006 8:15 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Wolverine
Experienced Mass Debater
Joined: 16 Mar 2006
Posts: 4586
Location: Germany
|
| Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 7:57 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Gabby wrote: | | What rules did I break? |
The rule mentioned is rule 13, as you can read under "Forum rules".
| Quote: |
Rule 13: Quality Threshold
The management reserves the right to remove posts and/or ban people who are too stupid, crazy, illiterate or unimaginative to contribute to the debate. |
You stated very clearly that you will not change your mind on matters, not even when arguments contradicted your point of view. Therefore, debating with you is like debating with a bible.
While this is not illiterate, and arguably not crazy it is obviously unimaginative. And it is stupid, since one feature of stupidity is keeping a point of view even when proved wrong. Since you explicitly say that you will not change your point of view, even when contradicted, you act stupid by this definition.
The judgement of whether you really have been contradicted is somewhat subjective, of course. The judgement of whether you are unimaginative is however plain obvious.
| Gabby wrote: |
The only way some people would feel good about Catholicism is if it changed its teachings on morality, and denounced Christ as a charlatan. |
No, that would denounce most popes as charlatans, as well as most priests in history. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
andkon
It's not a VOW of chastity...
Joined: 04 Aug 2005
Posts: 21406
Location: Turn around
|
| Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 8:09 am Post subject: |
|
|
Dear Village Idiot,
| Gabriel wrote: | | Quote: | | Your problem is that you premise most things you say with a lot of implicit assumptions that you have not justified. |
Like "God is a logical impossibility"? Or all the insults that are said against me, Jesus Christ, Catholicism? lol. Don't make me laugh anymore.. |
The usual swerve-and-attack maneuver. If it wouldn't get you out a traffic ticket, it doesn't work on DU.
| Gabriel wrote: | | How many times do I have to explain that my views are Catholic because I am Catholic? lol! |
Preferably zero times. New rule: if what you spout can be found almost verbatim in the CC, then you don't say it.
| Gabriel wrote: | | The problem here is that people hate the views of the Catholic Church. |
Yes, and for the same reasons DU hates the views of the National Socialist Party: it's all total bullshit assertions without evidence put forth.
| Gabriel wrote: | | I give my reasons, if people want to disagree that's okay too. |
The problem is you never give reasons, you just make assertions. "The Catholic Church believes..." is an assertion not a reason.
| Gabriel wrote: | | I have 8 different people asking me multiple questions, I can't always get to all of them right away. |
Or ever most of the time, although you do have time to make splashy collages during work using stock photos.
| Gabriel wrote: | | But my views are explained with arguments and analogies. I can't help it if people disagree. That's the nature of debate.. |
Get it through your thick skull: You do not debate. You spout, then when challenged, you repeat the same assertion again. When you're questioned again, you ignore the person or make a straw man "argument".
| Gabriel wrote: | | By the way, are you also going to tell andkon calling me a cunt? lol! |
I sense anger in the tone of your writing. Are you angry at me? Why do you hate atheism and want to kill Richard Dawkins?
| Gabriel wrote: | | The fact is, most of my posts are merely answering questions. |
That's not how you came here. You spammed away three messages full of evangelism. The fruit of that is zero conversions and everyone just more pissed than before.
| Gabriel wrote: | | if they ask me a question I'm going to answer it, regardless if it's going to upset their world view. It's nothing personal, just a different opinion. If they can't handle it, then they should all get me banned so my views don't upset them anymore. |
First, this isn't OPINION UNLIMITED. Second, can you tell us which Catholic forum would appreciate an atheist using any tone for three months straight?
| Gabriel wrote: | | So I need to stop insulting andkon, philbo, NoCoPilot and valupak with my views? If people can't stand it when I disagree with their view, well, then maybe they should skip my responses. |
I'm a prophet aren't I? I said she would start bitching about how she's a martyr.
| Gabriel wrote: | | I realize andkon has set a very high bar for me to emulate but I could never hope to achieve such dignity and poise in the debate forum. |
I disagree with Aslan, tknorris, Qaliber, and on political issues with a fair number of atheists. I have not called any of them cunts. What can you deduce from that?
| Gabriel wrote: | | tknorris, your advice is a joke, simply because you don't pinpoint nthe absurdities of others in this forum. |
Swerve and attack! "Officer, everyone else was speeding!"
| Gabriel wrote: | | This is an idiotic statement in the fuill sense of the word. The fact that I use Catholic teaching to express my views is a liability to Catholicism. I suppose Jesus Christ shouldn't have upset the pharisees either. lol! Please. |
You know, don't take this personally. If we want the Catholic view that's full of assertions and zero evidence, we can just look it up. We don't need a Cathecism Spambot whether or not we want the Catholic view. It shouldn't be forced down our throats.
| Gabriel wrote: | | I don't compromise my beliefs in order to be loved. Neither did Christ, as he explicitly said: "If the world hates you, know that it hated me before it hated you".. |
Martyr complex. If Gabriel was a man, he'd have a boner for Jesus right now.
| Gabriel wrote: | | The only way some people would feel good about Catholicism is if it changed its teachings on morality, |
Don't forget, we'd feel good about the Nazi party if it changed its views too.
| Gabriel wrote: | | The pope would give you the same reasons I give you. |
And if we did the same thing you have, I'd call him a cunt too.
| Gabriel wrote: | | If you don't like my argument, well, then dismiss me and ignore my posts. Is this hard to do? |
Yes it is. Therefore a ban is appropriate to unclog your spam from this forum.
| Gabriel wrote: | | Oh? I thought this was "Debate Unlimited" website, and "atheisms" was one of the forums. Is the topic of atheism only for atheists? |
Obviously. Tknorris, Aslan, Qaliber are all atheists, you know.
| Gabriel wrote: | | Quote: | | You have to respect their rules, as you would expect them to do if they came to a Catholic site. |
What rules did I break? Give my opinion? Upset andkon? Call him names? lol!! |
You spout assertions. The reason you're close to being banned is the same reason why you told me not to PM you anymore a few weeks back. You felt annoyed receiving messages from me, despite the fact you initiated the conversation. And now, we feel annoyed with you. Sucks when it boomerang backs at you, huh? It's called irony.
| Gabriel wrote: | | Mr. Willett is can ban me as soon as he feels like it. It's his site and he has a right to do as he sees fit. I'm certainly not going to imitate andkon, or hide my views in order to not get banned. |
Views don't need to hidden, but they need to be supported. Assertions are bad, okay?
| Gabriel wrote: | | If I get locked out, well, I get locked out. But the reality is that I could be the foulest most idiotic atheist in this forum, and the subject of banning wouldn't even be pondered. But this is Mr. Willett's sandbox, and if he doesn't want to let me play in it, that's his call. I will accept my fate. |
Oooooh! This is good stuff, not many people can say they've defined Andkon! http://www.andkon.com/info/defined.html
Gabby, are you breaking apart at the seams? Has your sugary smile fermented to dripping acid?
| Gabriel wrote: | | Nonsense. I don't go around telling andkon or any other person how to post. |
For the same reason why I don't tell most people how to be toilet-trained.
| Gabriel wrote: | And neither do I hear you telling him or other people how to post either. I'm getting multiple questions from 8 different people, and I give a point of view that others find offensive I get threatened with being banned. What is this, the Inquisition?  |
No, the Inquisition demanded that people change their views or be killed. We demand that have a brain that's more developed than that of a half-retarded chimpanzee.
| Gabriel wrote: | | Quote: | | The issue of identifying the point where the problems of acceptance cease to be the willingess of your audience to listen/hear, and begin to become a matter of the method in which you deliver. |
My method? What did I say that I doidn't give an argument for? People are free to disagree. In fact, if people get so upset, what's so hard about ignoring my answers? For example, Mr Star is rather shallow so I skip his posts altogether. It's easy! Another example is ankon. He gets so angry and I feel like giving hima hug, but then the barrage of insults is silly, so I sjust skip his posts. |
No, you don't skip my posts. You reply to about half of them and the other half you have to tie your hand down in order to resist, much in the same manner as how you deal with your nevermind problem.
| Gabriel wrote: | | No big deal. It's really simple. In fact, if people would stop asking me questions I wouldn't be posting half as much as I do. |
Let's remember your entrance to DU: "ooh these lonely souls, blah blah blah." No one asked for the Catholic opinion, you just gave it.
| Gabriel wrote: | | Quote: | | I have yet to see anyone be able to carry on a beneficial exchange with you, and that includes people that share some of your same beliefs. |
So what. People keep asking me questions, I will certainly give my Catholic perspective. |
Nope. We want arguments, not opinions.
| Gabriel wrote: | | The problem is not with me, but rather with my Catholicism. I speak frankly on issues like same-sex unions and pornography and the like, and people call me a bigot. |
And the problem is also with Nazism too. Don't forget.
| Gabriel wrote: | | I find andkon terribly silly, so does Aslan. Some of andkon's antics are rather silly and base, yet I don't hear you or tknorris furling your eyebrows in disapproval and giving him advice. |
Swerve and attack!
| Gabriel wrote: | | This whole thing is silly. If you don't like my posts SKIP THEM. |
But see, this isn't your site. No one forces you to post.
The last time I checked, Martin wanted his site to be more than spam from the Catholic Cathecism, but with the new site and all, perhaps Gabriel's spam is the new feature :-)
| Gabriel wrote: | | I happen to find your posts rather, well. nevermind. But I don't go around telling you how to make them more profound. That's not my business. |
Actually it should be. That's what DEBATE entails.
| Gabriel wrote: | | Elsewhere tknorris implied that I was idiotic |
No, tknorris is lot more nice. That was probably me.
| Gabriel wrote: | | explain the Catholic argument. |
No, no, no. Once again, you don't give Catholic arguments, you give Catholic assertions and Catholic opinions.
| Gabriel wrote: | | My problem is that "my approach is not pleasant enough? So I should emulate andkon or valupak? This is silly. |
Your approach is spam-based evangelism. Do that on the street, not on DU.
| Gabriel wrote: | | This would be great if you would apply it to your own approach. You made many assumptions about Catholic priests, celibacy and pedophiles which were flatly untrue. I provided you with plenty of evidence and you ignored my post. I didn't get upset. Nor did I whine or give you advice. |
Care to link to this?
| Gabriel wrote: | | People are free to challenge my positions with an argument, and I will respond with mine. |
Nope. You keep confusing "argument" with "assertion."
| Gabriel wrote: | | Oh by the way, when one of my views angers andkon again, and he calls me a cunt once again, I will see to it that I apologize to him to make sure his feelings are not hurt. |
I figured out why I hate you so much. Your contentless spouting is very much like my mother's.
| Gabriel wrote: | | If not, I am going to have to politely ask you to be silent, or get me banned from this Unlimited Debate website for not using an approach which you approve of. |
Yes, it's Debate Unlimited. Not to confused with Spam Unlimited, Assertions Unlimited, Spout Unlimited. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
tknorriss
Experienced Mass Debater
Joined: 28 Jul 2005
Posts: 1899
Location: Christchurch New Zealand
|
| Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 8:42 am Post subject: |
|
|
Well, I don't think there's much more that I can add to your responses to Gabby's last contribution.
Suffice it to say, I don't see any sign of problem recognition on her part. I think we will keep on getting more endless streams of BS from our mutual friend. I must admit, I got quite a few laughs from the intensely frustrated replies though. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
chinny
Experienced Mass Debater
Joined: 13 Aug 2005
Posts: 730
Location: Australia
|
| Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 8:44 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Wheres the option for burning them in their churches? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
davep
Not the resident astrologer
Joined: 29 Jul 2005
Posts: 8533
Location: South Lincolnshire, England
|
| Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 9:41 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Gabriel wrote: | | Gabriel, replying to tknorris wrote: | | Your authority is nothing more than your opinion. My authority is the Catholic Church whom I claim was founded by Christ Himself |
| In response, davep wrote: | | So your authority is nothing more than your opinion. |
No. The Catholic Church makes that claim. I am a Catholic, and I fully concur.The Catholic Church is my authority on truth about God. Thus my views are Catholic. |
That doesn't detract from the fact that your opinion is your authority. Your position is no different from TK's when it comes to matters of authority in faith.
At least TK is capable of analysing the fallout of his faith from an outside perspective, at least he's willing to test any form of authority that he falls back on. All you do is quote something that you personally think is an authority.
The fact that you can't see this, that you have no desire to actually enter into a debate about anything, is another example of why you're being considered for action under rule 13.
| Gabriel wrote: | | tk wrote: | | Essentially, they are just your opinion, or the opinion of someone else, or the Catholic organisation. |
How many times do I have to explain that my views are Catholic because I am Catholic? |
And how many times does it have to be explained to you that "because the Catholic Church told me so" isn't a credible approach to debate? Are you starting to see yet why the use of rule 13 wouldn't be about what you believe, or what the Catholic Church has told you to believe, but is about how you're incapable of approaching debate in a sincere way?
| Gabriel wrote: | | I'm not a freelance Bible-interpreter. |
No, in essence, you're someone who just cuts and pastes from Catholic doctrine and, when the fancy takes you, is also happy to pass off other people's work as your own.
| Gabriel wrote: | | The problem here is that people hate the views of the Catholic Church. |
Wrong. The problem here is that you're not here to debate them, you're here to evangelise them.
| Gabriel wrote: | | But when I dare to point out why the Church teaches why it is wrong, then everyone gets angry and calls me names. |
Wrong again. People don't get frustrated with you because of what your Church tells you to believe, they get frustrated with you because you're unwilling or unable to debate all the consequences of those beliefs and, when flaws are demonstrated in those beliefs, you're unwilling or unable to examine them -- instead you just rewind and start to quote the original point.
You're not here for debate, you're here to hide behind your Church.
| Gabriel wrote: | | I understand the atheist's perspective perfectly well. |
No you don't. If you did you'd have dropped the "bags of chemicals" rubbish a long time ago. This is yet another example of why rule 13 is being considered: it isn't about what the Catholic Church tells you to believe, it's about the self-deception you employ in regard to what atheists think and do. Remember, you're the one who has suggested that atheists fill their heads with pornography to fill the gaps that would otherwise have been taken up with Bible verses.
| Gabriel wrote: | | My method? What did I say that I doidn't give an argument for? |
Try this post as one recent example out of many. Where's the backing for your argument in that post?
| Gabriel wrote: | | Elsewhere tknorris implied that I was idiotic because I was discussing certain topics that get people riled up, such as same-sex unions, etc. |
You really haven't understood a single thing that TK has written for you have you? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
