Debate Unlimited Forum

Potterer · Posted: Sat May 16, 2009 12:37 pm Post subject: Could Some Be True?

I figure bits of the Bible must be true. And the bit I like best is the story of Deborah, the Judge who sat under a palm tree deciding matters for those who couldn't sort it out amoungst themselves. Then along comes a bad guy and she sticks a tent peg through his head. No wonder Deborah means "Bee". Ouch.

Sometimes it's good to have a tough female leader to take example from, and don't let the men tell you otherwise.

Oh and yes, I know all the excuses as to why she is just an exception and so doesn't count and don't you wimmin go getting the wrong idea from all these tough Biblical wimmin.

Kyle · Posted: Sat May 16, 2009 1:30 pm Post subject:

I would be amazed if some of the bible was not historically accurate if only by chance. You simply can't write down that many words and not have some of it, however minor, line up with reality. Likewise the bible is great for mining those secret "codes" that supposedly predict future events.

And yes, I agree that there have been powerful women in the past and there will continue to be in the future.

NoCoPilot · Posted: Sat May 16, 2009 2:09 pm Post subject:

I suspect much of, perhaps most of the bible is based on real events -- elaborated on, enhanced, made miraculous in the retelling before it was written down (particularly the OT, which had a long oral history). And of course we know much of is is borrowed from the pagan and mystery religions of early Romans.

Lisa 1 · Posted: Sat May 16, 2009 3:15 pm Post subject:

I consider the biblical quote, "All is vanity", to be the truest.

StephenAI · Posted: Sat May 16, 2009 5:06 pm Post subject:

Why is he a bad guy, and why does he get a tent peg through the head? That doesn't, in my mind at any rate, make Deborah a thoughtful, rational judge I would want making judgments for me or my tribe/community.

...and what is it about this story that makes you think it might be a truer bit?

Jenni · Posted: Sat May 16, 2009 9:04 pm Post subject:

I think bits of the bible are true the same way bits of a Stephen King novel are true.

keithprosser2 · Experienced Mass Debater Joined: 29 Jul 2005 Posts: 3307

My view is that some of the Bible - or at least the OT - is true, but very,very little. I don't think the writers of the OT invented all that much from total scratch. What they did is take what the Hebrew believed was their real history but editorialised it so it served the purpose of glorifying YHWH. There is some historical truth in the Bible, but is in 'in between the lines', not in the surface text. What I mean is that if the Bible says there was a battle with the Moabites, then there might well have been such a battle. But the Bible will say it was won or lost because the Hebrew were faithful to YHWH or had displeased him... that part of the story is no use at all if you are interested in real history, but very important if you want to understand the motivations of the writers.

The story of Deborah might be more or less true, or more or less a complete fabrication. I don't think there is any way to tell. Perhaps Deborah was a true patriotic heroine. Perhaps it is all a big fib, propaganda about how a non-Hebrew was brought down by a mere Hebrew woman. Take your pick.

Clancy · Posted: Sat May 16, 2009 10:54 pm Post subject:

Most historical fiction is based in part on actual events.

It's just the other characters that get filled in on.

Like Jesus....

Potterer · Posted: Mon May 18, 2009 11:41 am Post subject:

StephenA1 asks why he is a bad guy? Well, if you ask the winner, they will tell you! And if the other tribe was willing to anhialate my tribe, I would want a tough person, male or femalem to be willing to get up and fight. I mean, pacifism only works if both sides believe in it. If Hilter only met with pacifists, we'd all be Nazi slaves, wouldn't we? Sometimes you gotta fight, whether you like it or not. Other wise the other dude will just walk in a nd take all your stuff. Might be fine for you , but not everyone likes that idea.

Wolverine · Posted: Mon May 18, 2009 2:33 pm Post subject: Re: Could Some Be True?

Potterer · Posted: Tue May 19, 2009 1:14 am Post subject:

That's right, so it was. Anyway, no matter, a woman judged them and a woman defeated the enemy.
And in the New Testament, somewhere it says a woman can prophesy in church as long as she covered her head, which is what the men had to do too.
But now, what is the woman's position in the church?

OliverBendix · Posted: Tue May 19, 2009 4:40 am Post subject:

Potterer · Posted: Wed May 20, 2009 12:35 pm Post subject:

Well, it just goes to show you. I would have put the Presbyterians near the bottom of the list of those who would accept women preachers. I msut be very out of date!

Markaba 2.0 · Posted: Wed May 20, 2009 5:45 pm Post subject:

Well, you know what they say: sometimes fiction is truer than fact. Wink

richard09 · Posted: Sun May 24, 2009 6:40 pm Post subject:

I don't know if you have to register to watch this, but registration is free anyway. This particular video is a biblical scholar talking about (among other things) how Biblical Archeology is now essentially moribund, having failed to find physical evidence of almost anything in the bible. Not especially entertaining, and nothing really new to me, but he can speak with some authority. Might be worthwhile if you still attach "relevance" and "truth" to the bible.

Hector Avalos: How Archaeology Killed Biblical History

keithprosser2 · Experienced Mass Debater Joined: 29 Jul 2005 Posts: 3307

The video mentioned the archaeologist Israel Finkelstein. A few years ago I read his book 'The Bible Unearthed' which covers this stuff. I thoroughly recommend it.
I was always a 'minimalist' - there is only the bare minimum of historical fact in the Bible. After reading Finkelstein, that minimum is much, much smaller than I thought. Anything before the post-Solomonic period is completely without even the grain of truth that is underlies most myth and legend. After Solomon the situation is a bit better, but not much. (Of course all the supernatural stuff is just the way the writers interpret and editorialise - I ignore all that).

Tom Gooding · Posted: Sun May 24, 2009 9:21 pm Post subject:

Thanks for the recommendation, Keith.

Potterer · Posted: Mon May 25, 2009 1:06 am Post subject:

The story of Deborah is supposed to be the oldest bit of the Bible. I just think a stry like that, a story after all, would have been based on someone sometime, and as not much is said to glorify the persons involved, why not a real person? But we'll never know, because these things weren't written down till centuries later.
And I know most is amazing fiction especially the bit about Egypt and Moses.
Still, there may have been a Moses, but he was probably a priest and leader who jotted down the 10 commandments{ or invented them and committed them to memeory... I think I'll leave that typo in for everyone to think about...}