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flammifer
Goatmaster
Joined: 28 Jul 2005
Posts: 2218
Location: Paris
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 Posted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 8:47 am Post subject: Fred Phelps is a con man |
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I came across this interesting link
| Quote: | Fred Phelps does not believe what he is doing. This is a scam.
It's a business. They travel the country, set up websites telling you exactly when they'll be there, and using the most inflammatory statements all over the place, just to get someone to violate their rights for profit. Then they sue the military, the police force that was to protect them, and everyone that is around them for money. This is a sham, and it is a trap to get people sued. Every member of his family is an attorney. Phelps does not break the law. What he does is try to make you break the law by trying to punch your sensibilities about everything you hold dear, and then sue you and everyone municipality around him to the max.
This is a scam. |
| Quote: | | Also, for a religious fanatic, a group of people who pride themselves on personal attacks, he was running a protest so terribly by the books that I was impressed by it. He will not bait a person, ever. He will not make personal attacks. He will make blanket statements. He will look at a person in the crowd that he thinks is gay, walk over to his stack of signs, pull out the appropriate, well designed, easily read, laminated bright board, and hold it up and loudly proclaim that "gays are going to hell" or some such nonsense, and make eye contact, but he will never cross the line of telling that person that they're going to hell. That would be the part that would screw up the lawsuit. |
Interesting stuff! Some here offered alternate theories.
| MNPFS wrote: | | I've suspect for some time that Fred Phelps of the Westboro Baptist Church (As in the God hates homosexual fame) might be an atheist posing as a theist. If he is an atheist, and despises Christians enough, then he might have come up with the idea of pretending to be one to give bad press. |
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richard09
Rueful Rabbit
Joined: 28 Jul 2005
Posts: 5570
Location: New York
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| Posted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 2:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Sounds plausible to me. |
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Martin Willett
Actually I DO
own this place
Joined: 26 Jul 2005
Posts: 15495
Location: England
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| Posted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 5:38 pm Post subject: |
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| What is wrong with the sincerity hypothesis? |
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richard09
Rueful Rabbit
Joined: 28 Jul 2005
Posts: 5570
Location: New York
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| Posted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 7:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Martin Willett wrote: | | What is wrong with the sincerity hypothesis? |
The author's argument is that the genuinely sincere are not so careful of the law in their actions. I would tend to agree with that observation. |
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flammifer
Goatmaster
Joined: 28 Jul 2005
Posts: 2218
Location: Paris
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| Posted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 8:57 pm Post subject: |
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| He could have started off sincere, and done more of what got him positive results (money, fame), and less of what got him negative results (lawsuits, punches in the nose) to the point where his shtick is completely optimized for money. |
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rdmiller3
Experienced Mass Debater
Joined: 09 Feb 2007
Posts: 1545
Location: Muskego, Wisconsin US
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| Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 3:40 pm Post subject: |
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My guess is that they're mostly sincere, perhaps with some doubts. It may be that they've decided to interpret things in ways which reinforce their beliefs.
Fundamentalist doctrine says that they are supposed to be in conflict with the whole world, mocked and hated, so they must be doing it right, eh? It may seem to them that negative reaction is a means of measuring their success. And if they chance to figure out how to be mocked and hated more, that might seem to them that they are being more successful Christians.
They probably ran into the legal issues pretty early. Learning how to win those court battles would feed their opinion of self-righteousness and make them more hated. Double win.
So I think they're believers. I think the media attention is driving them and if people were better at ignoring them, they'd probably go away. I bet the break-up will be ugly.
It's really just one family, isn't it? Surely there must be some other freaks for the media to show. |
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andkon
It's not a VOW of chastity...
Joined: 04 Aug 2005
Posts: 21666
Location: Turn around
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| Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 3:43 pm Post subject: |
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| rdmiller3 wrote: | | So I think they're believers. I think the media attention is driving them and if people were better at ignoring them, they'd probably go away. I bet the break-up will be ugly. |
Yeah, I've had these sort of thoughts. They're trolls who feed off the attention. |
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Jenni
Nietzschean Superwoman
Joined: 26 May 2008
Posts: 3975
Location: Mississippi
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| Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 8:01 pm Post subject: |
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| rdmiller3 wrote: | | It's really just one family, isn't it? |
No, I think I read it is just that one family. Weird, but explainable. |
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G. Whiz
Ms. Debater
Joined: 11 Jun 2008
Posts: 3010
Location: California
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| Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 2:09 am Post subject: Phelps-A-Thon |
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Want to tell off the old man and his bunch of sickos? Go here.
Through that site, I pledged (and later donated) $1 for every minute the WBC picketed the recent ComicCon in San Diego. |
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Cloud Walker
One with the Universe
Joined: 28 Jul 2005
Posts: 5651
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| Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 4:22 am Post subject: |
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| andkon wrote: | | rdmiller3 wrote: | | So I think they're believers. I think the media attention is driving them and if people were better at ignoring them, they'd probably go away. I bet the break-up will be ugly. |
Yeah, I've had these sort of thoughts. They're trolls who feed off the attention. |
That's exactly what I think they are/we should do. They're real life trolls. Or, maybe, real life internet trolls. Don't feed them. |
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Silenoz
Experienced Mass Debater
Joined: 17 Jul 2006
Posts: 1068
Location: Milwaukee, WI, USA
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| Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 6:06 pm Post subject: |
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Alternative theory.
Fred Phelps is a radical leftist and atheist who uses his showy parishioners to debase the religious right. Their stances are so grossly reactionary that they conflict with and alienate real social conservatives. Choice of picketing soldier's funerals is a targeted attack on the worldviews of homophobic "patriots" whose views on war are summarized by "support our troops, and no faggots in foxholes."
He is, in short, the most brilliant social engineer of our time.
Do I believe a word of this? No. Occam's Razor in this case. |
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WDGann
Mass Debater
Joined: 17 Oct 2008
Posts: 390
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| Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 8:51 pm Post subject: |
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Phelps used to make coin with civil rights lawsuits. But I think he was eventually disbarred. So this is not an entirely unreasonable hypothesis. (Presumably even the disbarred can still represent themselves).
Tracking down how many lawsuits the Westboro types have filed would probably give more of a clue whether or not this is a scam or bona fide batshit crazy. Even then though, they'd just claim they were protecting their rights, so it's ultimately impossible to know unless one of them steps forward and confesses to barratry. |
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richard09
Rueful Rabbit
Joined: 28 Jul 2005
Posts: 5570
Location: New York
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| Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 3:43 am Post subject: |
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I wasn't searching for it, but happened across this news article.
Fred Phelps' son gets new job: promoting atheism and battling homophobia | Quote: | Unlike his Bible-thumping dad, Nate Phelps likes Lady Gaga’s music and feels sorry for Mel Gibson.
Phelps has also been hired as the executive director of the Alberta branch of the Centre for Inquiry (CFI) Canada.
CFI is an atheist charity that promotes “skeptical, secular, rational and humanistic enquiry.” |
| Quote: | Before Phelps Sr came out with picketing campaigns like “God Hates Fags” and telling the world Lady Gaga has a whore’s forehead, he was a lawyer and successfully fought racial segregation when he took on school boards in the 1960s (Johnson vs Whittier) so black children could attend predominantly white schools.
When Phelps Jr is asked if fighting homophobia runs parallel with his father’s early life ideals and fighting racism, he says his father worked with blacks because he was obsessed with getting media attention. He says his father’s obsession likely sprung from a 1951 Time magazine article written about him.
“His support of blacks was because it was an empty shell. At the time, it was a wide-open arena. And he was good at what he did. He used that opportunity to make a lot of money. His words and deeds, there was no question he was prejudiced against blacks. I know my father has the same prejudices against blacks as gays. Maybe not the same, but he believes blacks are just as cursed as gays,” says Phelps. |
So if I'm parsing this right, the question "true believer or money grubber" is best answered "both". Phelps Sr is a true believer who also happens to be an astute lawyer and is well capable of using his (manufactured) situations to make money. |
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007
hardcore liberal
Joined: 17 Mar 2006
Posts: 5695
Location: Frankfurt, the world's largest village
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| Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 7:08 am Post subject: |
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| If they're con artists, why did they attempt to enter the UK recently (only to be turned back)? That wouldn't have been a moneymaking opportunity, it would have been something between a lynching and a prison sentence. Or did they know they'd never be allowed in and do it for the extra publicity? |
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Bluechip
Joined: 30 May 2010
Posts: 27
Location: Michigan
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| Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 8:29 pm Post subject: |
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| I've often wondered the same thing about rush limbaugh. Of course he is making big bucks shoveling his crap, but does he actually believe it himself? I would like to get limbaugh alone and ask him to respond in confidence if he actually believes what he says. Then, regardless of the answer, punch him in the nose. Actually I should thank limbaugh in a backward way, I was apolitical in the early nineties until a friend told me to listen to rush. After a very short time I realised that I didn't agree with ANYTHING he said, so I must not be a republican. And then I lived happily ever after! |
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WDGann
Mass Debater
Joined: 17 Oct 2008
Posts: 390
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| Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 11:58 pm Post subject: |
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| I didn't know they'd tried to enter the UK. I wonder about the logistics of that, I mean, presumably they just got on a plane, and were turned back at the border, since they wouldn't have to apply for a visa ahead of time. I guess that puts them back in the batshit camp. |
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Sincerity
Mass Debater
Joined: 28 Jul 2010
Posts: 299
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| Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 4:45 am Post subject: |
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| Bluechip wrote: | | I've often wondered the same thing about rush limbaugh. Of course he is making big bucks shoveling his crap, but does he actually believe it himself? I would like to get limbaugh alone and ask him to respond in confidence if he actually believes what he says. Then, regardless of the answer, punch him in the nose. Actually I should thank limbaugh in a backward way, I was apolitical in the early nineties until a friend told me to listen to rush. After a very short time I realised that I didn't agree with ANYTHING he said, so I must not be a republican. And then I lived happily ever after! |
I feel confronted with the counfounding issue of people saying things that are SO FAR FROM REALITY, each and every day, that I have learned to sigh and chalk it up to human nature.
Rush Limbaugh believes in his cause so strongly that he can basically make himself believe anything.
He's not entirely wrong. There are often elements of truth in what he says, but it's often grossly exagerated.
I think Fred Phelps may be in the same boat. I think it's been pretty well documented that there are a number of big name religious figures who ACTUALLY believe that moral corruption in the United States is actually one of the root causes of the relative economic and social decline they claim to see around them.
Didn't several of them claim that 9-11 and Hurricane Katrina were both caused by the gays and relatively high density of "sinfulness" in NYC and NOL?
I face people all the time who claim to KNOW what kind of person I am. They argue it strenuously. They lie in research papers and they lie in front of congress and there's nothing I can do about it. It's human nature. |
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flammifer
Goatmaster
Joined: 28 Jul 2005
Posts: 2218
Location: Paris
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| Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 7:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Sincerity wrote: | | I think it's been pretty well documented that there are a number of big name religious figures who ACTUALLY believe that moral corruption in the United States is actually one of the root causes of the relative economic and social decline they claim to see around them. |
That could be true. It's entirely possible that
1) religion is factually wrong, and
2) loss of religion in a society leads to a loss of moral values that eventually has negative effects on that society
I don't know if that's the case - I doubt it, things aren't nearly that simple, and a lot of arguments about "moral corruption" or degeneration of society are simplistic and wrong. There's a lot of politically biased stuff on all sides, and a bad signal-to-noise ratio. But it's certainly possible, and it doesn't seem to be a very surprising opinion to me. There's a huge degree of uncertainty for pretty much all opinions related to politics, culture, morals, society and the economy. Opinions that are both commonly held, and can be shown to be wrong with a good enough degree of confidence are few and far between. |
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richard09
Rueful Rabbit
Joined: 28 Jul 2005
Posts: 5570
Location: New York
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| Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 9:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Sincerity wrote: | | Rush Limbaugh believes in his cause so strongly that he can basically make himself believe anything. |
I don't actually believe that. I think his public persona is entirely manufactured for the purpose of making fame and money. The amount of genuine belief underlying it is relatively small. |
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Jenni
Nietzschean Superwoman
Joined: 26 May 2008
Posts: 3975
Location: Mississippi
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| Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 9:03 pm Post subject: |
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| richard09 wrote: | | I think his public persona is entirely manufactured for the purpose of making fame and money. The amount of genuine belief underlying it is relatively small. |
I agree with that. Like Dennis Leary's anger it's a schtick, a gimmick. |
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Sincerity
Mass Debater
Joined: 28 Jul 2010
Posts: 299
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| Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 4:44 am Post subject: |
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| Jenni wrote: | | richard09 wrote: | | I think his public persona is entirely manufactured for the purpose of making fame and money. The amount of genuine belief underlying it is relatively small. |
I agree with that. Like Dennis Leary's anger it's a schtick, a gimmick. |
I have met enough Limbaugh supporters that speak his word like gospel, that it wouldn't surprise me at all.
Never attribute to malice, what you can attribute to stupidity.
Did you know, CNN did a poll this week for Obama's birthday and found that almost 20% of Americans (and over 40% of Republicans) believe that he was not born in the United States.
Seriously, actually believe....
I find it trivially easy to believe that Limbaugh falls into that self-same 40% of Republicans.
It may be completely fucking insane and maybe he plays it up a bit but I think he might believe much of it, even if he doesn't specifically believe that Obama is Nigerian.
In-sane.
Sometimes, I too, have trouble believing people could be that wrong but it really can be human nature to believe what is convenient. I know I fight with that all the time, to make sure I don't do that, because on one topic in my life, my beliefs fall VERY far from the mainstream and I make a strong effort to ensure that they're based on reality rather than hope. |
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andkon
It's not a VOW of chastity...
Joined: 04 Aug 2005
Posts: 21666
Location: Turn around
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| Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 5:28 am Post subject: |
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| Sincerity wrote: | Did you know, CNN did a poll this week for Obama's birthday and found that almost 20% of Americans (and over 40% of Republicans) believe that he was not born in the United States.
Seriously, actually believe.... |
There's no hope for meaningful dialogue in such a country. I really don't like Obama (and speaking of con men, think he's one) but that doesn't change the reality that the guy has a birth certificate (I mean certificate of birth) that reads Hawaii.
| Sincerity wrote: | | Sometimes, I too, have trouble believing people could be that wrong but it really can be human nature to believe what is convenient. |
It's really the childish stubbornness that I can't stand. "Grow the fuck up," I'd like to strangle.
In related news, I saw a bumper sticker with the word SECEDE imposed on the Texas flag. |
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Sincerity
Mass Debater
Joined: 28 Jul 2010
Posts: 299
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| Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 5:32 am Post subject: |
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| Sincerity wrote: |
In related news, I saw a bumper sticker with the word SECEDE imposed on the Texas flag. |
I'm in a small town in Texas today. It seems a fairly common attitude here. I saw two or three "CITIZEN OF TEXAS" bumper stickers driving around today.
I hate having to visit such places. It makes me feel more like a foreigner than I do in France. |
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Clancy
Immoderate ex-goddess
Joined: 28 Jul 2005
Posts: 8221
Location: Cape Barren Island
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| Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 5:40 am Post subject: |
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So what if he wasn't born in the USA?
Our Prime Minister was born in bloody Wales...
Oh thats right you guys have that insane thing that says a person not born in the USA can't become President?
Im not sure how Obama is percieved in the USA these days, but I actually thing he is a pretty decent sort. Damn site beeter than Bush anyway.Never understood the problem you have with him Andy. |
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Sincerity
Mass Debater
Joined: 28 Jul 2010
Posts: 299
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| Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 5:52 am Post subject: |
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| Clancy wrote: | So what if he wasn't born in the USA?
Our Prime Minister was born in bloody Wales...
Oh thats right you guys have that insane thing that says a person not born in the USA can't become President?
Im not sure how Obama is percieved in the USA these days, but I actually thing he is a pretty decent sort. Damn site beeter than Bush anyway.Never understood the problem you have with him Andy. |
I think the main beef with him (other than the absurd ad hominem) is that he's a fairly "slick" professional politician. A very skilled orator who can woo people with words.
I know, terrible sort to have as president.
At least he can pronounce "Iraq" and "America" and "underestimate". LOL
There's criticism of him being "too liberal". His approval rating is under 50% for the first time recently and more than half of republicans view him as a "communist" and use that exact word, which is just silly, but they don't care about reality, just faith. |
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