Polish Spirit, Third Shot

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Amoral monsters

I'm afraid you got me quite wrong the last time. I did not mean that losing faith entails becoming amoral. I even think I have better personal rules now because they are my own - not imposed, I keep to them because I know they are right. Most of the principles I follow come from some religions (mostly Christianity simply because I know it best) or philosophies (like Epicureanism). For example I believe in the Golden Rule wchich notabene is mistakenly accredited to Jesus - it was stated by Confucius (although he did not give the rule any name) 500 BC. I also don't accept any ready set of rules entirely, I only choose those parts that seem right to me. Right does not mean convenient... Beliefs that I consider convenient are those which allow you avoid difficult thinking and painful conclusions. I do not always like being an atheist - sometimes I'd prefer to be just stupid and happy.. But I know that whatever you believe, you cannot change the way things are so whether you accept the truth or not you cannot change it. And I know that some people wouldn't reconcile themselves with the Truth, they believe in Heaven and the Just Lord because they don't want to question it. Those beliefs give them comfort (esp. for women). If they were proved wrong, they wouldn't become amoral monsters - they would just waste their lives being embittered and pessimistic. Let them be simply mistaken good people, they need not be hurting.

I am by no means for preserving religion. It's just like with the underclass, overpopulation and famine - destroying it does not mean shooting people, the causes should be fought first. So coming back to religion - it should just be inhibited in stages, stopped from spreading - we don't have to deconvert everybody. I believe that time will come when children will not be indoctrinated any bullshit - they will simply keep to their in-born belief, atheism.

White Christmas

It's a standard in Poland (maybe except for the coast). Everybody is utterly disappointed when there's no snow for at least Christmas Eve, but it happens maybe once per a decade. I like Christmas but not as much as I used to when I was a child. I like exchanging presents and sending and receiving Christmas cards. What I don't like is that my mom always exerts herself to prepare everything - it takes lots of cleaning, shopping and cooking. I help her as I might but even though she does 90% of the work herself because she knows best how to do it. As an atheist I treat Christmas as a time when I can sit with my family in one room and just waste some time together - sometimes it's necessary, especially because work and school keep us separated most of the time. The religious part of Christmas is well developed in Poland - we have many old traditions that are unique, for example singing Christmas carols (our ones are much different than those you can hear in supermarkets all December long). We have many special Christmas meals, the most popular is fried carp. And do you share wafers? I never liked it, it's so forced, artificial and hypocritical (in too many cases). Our Christmas do not have much in common with those from American films. I think Poles regard them more important than most other nations (applicable for elderly people and children believing in Santa Claus). These days Christmas are becoming more and more commercial, most people associate them with great shopping. Others associate it with Jesus. I associate it with winter walks with family.

Thinking in English

I think in English when I use it. I began learning this language when I was 7 so it was early enough to trigger some natular reflexes. I also know German quite well but I don't speak fluently and make many grammatical mistakes when writing - it's because I began learning it at the age of 15 and did not have any contact with native speakers. I suppose you san suspect me of translating because some of my sentences are constructed in an unusual way - influence of Polish style is inevitable. But I never use the write in Polish and translate technique to write anything in English (and even in German).

Jokes

I like good jokes but unfortunately my favourite ones are based on Polish word-play. I am hopeless at remembering jokes off the top of my head, I have to hit on a long forgotten one when a situation occurs that reminds me of it. Apart from that I don't tell jokes very often, only when I have no inspiration to keep the company cheered-up. I bet more on amusing people with stupid ideas made up on the fly, situation humor and anecdotes. Jokes are the last resort, but a good joke isn't bad : ) Now I'm too worn out to think of any reasonable ones, but wait until the next time.

I read your last message again. As you suspected, I was a little tired when I read it the last time. Tired as in wanting to go to bed, not tired and emotional which is one of the hundreds of phrases the British use to imply being drunk. Now I see what you were meaning, as Marx said

Religion is the opium of the people.

A Contribution to the Critique of Hegel's Philosophy of Right (1843) introduction.

A painkiller, self administered in most cases. I suppose that makes sense. When I find that life makes no sense I can cope because of two important factors;

1] My life has not caused me too much pain

2] I do not expect life to make sense, I am quite comfortable with the idea that shit happens and so what?

I have not had to deal with any terrible problems in my life; pain, personal loss or great injustice. I have encountered pain and I have encountered failure, but these have been relatively modest. I cannot know for certain how I would react if put under extreme stress. I have speculated and I suspect that I could cope with many nasty scenarios. I am overweight and unfit and I have never been seriously destitute. I can never be sure how I could cope with things like war or the death of loved ones, but then again who is born to cope with such things? Most people can meet most challenges, I think I could have hacked it as a rear gunner in a Lancaster bomber or a plantation slave if that was what had happened to me, but it would have changed me.

Should we remove people's painkillers? Perhaps it is safe to try when they are not in pain? At least we should be available, offer the alternative model of morality without a frame of lies and deceits at the core.

I think I will also clarify my ramblings about being a Christian Atheist. What I mean is that much of the memetic baggage I carry is from a Christian heritage. To use Dawkins's metaphor many of the memes that I carry and treasure as my own heritage once rowed in teams with other memes about virgin births and stories of the lives of saints. How many were actually born in the mind of Jesus I do not know. I certainly do not get my beliefs from the teachings of Jesus in any direct route. I do not count the Bible as a major source of my political motivation, although many (British and) European socialists do.

Does Confucius express the Christian form of the Golden Rule, the pre-emptive strike of goodness? Doing unto others as you would have them do unto you as opposed to treating them as they treat you? Even if that is not an original Christian teaching I am fairly sure that it is the teachings of Jesus on this matter that have had the biggest effect on the world, even if only in rhetoric.

Carp

I thought that you might mention carp in your Christmas traditions. For some unknown reason the British are very reluctant to eat any freshwater fish, I can't explain why. We eat trout and salmon but that is about it. I have never knowingly eaten any other river or pond species of fish. This did not used to the case. In medieval times fishponds were common, and not for sport fishing, but for the table. Millions of British men and boys spend time sitting outside on cold days drowning worms in ponds and rivers and pulling out large edible fish and then putting them back. Quite bizarre.

I have no problem with the idea of eating fish of any kind as long as it tastes good. Perhaps one day I will find out if carp is as good as you say. There is a fishpond I know not too far away that has some carp in it, how hard is it to spear a 90 cm long fish..?


 

I notice that you suggested that women are more likely to believe in Christianity, do you have any theories as to why that might be?

 


Thanks for answering my questions about thinking in English. I have very few language skills, or rather, few skills except English. I learned French a bit in school but it was not very exciting, I never felt motivated to learn. I suppose English is a more stimulating language to learn as there is much more that you can do with it when you are surrounded by American and British culture. I did not have any such reason to learn French, I did not have any trips to France or any expectation of going there at any time and what French culture did I come across? Virtually none. Mais tout le monde parlez anglais. Learning a language requires a commitment of time and dedication, there has to be a good reason to do it, I only learned French enough to pass the examination, and then I forgot most of what I had learned. I suppose if I had been born in Poland I would have learned English as you have done, and found it useful, and perhaps even enjoyable. In the world today English has got to be the single most useful language to have in addition to your mother tongue.

To what extent is your language American English and to what extent English English, or is it International English, youth English, Internet English, science English or something else?

I find when I am writing for the 'net I change my language to make it more inclusive. I use a few more American phrases than I would do normally and I refrain from using Northern English dialect words and obviously British dialect phrases and words. I do not speak with a strong regional accent, many English people find it hard to know where I come from. Everybody can tell that I am English, but many could not say much more than that. I use a few regional dialect words in my normal speech at work. I also have a private vocabulary and a family vocabulary. I use certain words and phrases with my mother, father and sister which are unique to that family. I use other words to my wife and children. My wife has been a nanny to several children and so our family language has been enriched by a high proportion of novel children's word and phrase inventions. At work there is a small private vocabulary of extra words and phrases that would not be understood in different shops or different companies. In my own head I use other words that I never speak to anybody else, at least there are certain meanings I attribute to ordinary words that have a distinct meaning that is rarely, if ever, communicated to other people, I simply use it as my own mental shorthand. So even somebody as monoglot as me is in a way using several languages. I suppose you can do better than that.


How do you see the enlargement of the European Union? Is this a good thing? Is it a step towards a world state, or away from it?

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Women and Christianity

It's simple. Women are prone to demagoguery more than men (in general of course, I know many exceptions on both sides). They use their feelings when they think about ethics. I try not to. Women have evolved to be good mothers - they are sensitive, compassionate and caring. And it's very good (I like such girls very much) but there's one but. Those traits almost (fortunately only almost) always supress rational thinking - most women put feelings before reason. And they consider everybody who thinks otherwise is callous. For example they cannot understand that helping some social parasite (like immigrant beggars who earn more than the national average feeding on people's naivety) is not a right thing to do. Though allowing beggars to earn money doing completely nothing is uneducational (I couldn't bother to find a better term). And if we just ceased to help them, begging would die out naturally - those loafers would understand that if they don't get a job they'll starve. So as the result they would become more worthy men. Wouldn't it be better? But understanding this requires fighting the first impulse. This can be compared to flowing water - it always flows down, it doesn't overcome any hills even if they are followed by a great deep valley - water doesn't see that (what an awkward comparison, eh?, but I hope you get it - if not I'll clarify it the next time).

And now a joke that I find very fun to tell in the presence of obtrusive believers because some say "What's so funny about it?" and get frustrated.

A Christian pirest went to Greenland to convert Eskimos. He preached and preached and when he finished one Eskimo asked

- If I don't agree to do what you've told me will I go to hell?

- Yes, of course - said the missionary -

And if you did not come here and I wouldn't learn about your God and lived the whole life not knowing about him and his teachings, would I go to hell?

- Err, ...nno. -

Then why did you tell me?

to be continued.. (I don't know when)

That is rather an old joke, I have seen it before. But it does illustrate an interesting point. Why do Christians spread the word of Jesus? Many (not all) Christians believe that people who are ignorant of the word of God but act well will go to heaven anyway. To tell good people about God is to put them at risk, if they know about God they have no excuse not to follow all his teachings, even the strange ones that are not natural and self evident.

Ignorance is bliss?

 

Definition of INNOCENCE
Not knowing what THEY don't want you to know.
Definition of IGNORANCE
Not knowing what they DO want you to know
Definition of PIG IGNORANCE
Not believing what they have TOLD YOU
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Don't do unto others what you don't want to be done unto you.

These are the words of Confucius (my translation from a book in Polish translated from English). But Christ's version seems to be more popular (probably because Jesus did not use negations - they are too difficult to understand for some ignorant minds..). I don't quite know why it happened so. Maybe Jesus was more charismatic than Confucius, maybe it's because he claimed to be the son of God while Confucius did not - he was a mere philosopher (no wonder that Jesus was a greater authority). Finally Jesus might have been more lucky with finding good disciples to spread his teachings. From the memetic point of view all abovementioned factors could affect the effectiveness of meme replication.

My English

I don't know what sort of English it is that I use - I'd rather expect you to know it from my writings, you should be more orientated than I am in this subject. I can only tell you what could have affected my way of writing in English. I began learning this language from some colorful books with cassettes for children (the recordings were quite poor as they were made by Poles). In the 4th grade English became one of the regular subjects at school, with typically British spelling and pronunciation (more or less - the teacher was Polish of course). Three years later I started attending a private school of English. That was an important experience -three years of lessons with a guy from America, then two with a Pole who spoke with an excellent Scottish accent (he went to Scotland very often). Then I passed Cambridge Advanced English exam and obtained B (poor speaking..) This year I visited England myself for the first time but only for two weeks. I lived in Woking near London. It was a trip combined with a language course - very nice and useful. Apart from that I've been using Internet extensively for the last four years, mainly seeking scientific articles. But I also learned much slang from the Internet. I try not to use it to avoid coming out as an idiot but I can get most of it. If I were to choose what's my best skill in English I'd say it's reading - I can understand writings in English as well as in Polish. Writing is a bit more tricky since I don't always know which word to use. The biggest pain in the neck for me is the fact that I cannot translate some really good Polish words into English simply because they are based on a word play or onomatopoeia or are untranslatable for another reason. So all in all I think that my English is a British-American-scientific-net mix. I hope it's close enough to International English. My point of view is purely pragmatic - I want to communicate as easily as possible.

Removing painkillers

I think it's always dangerous, not only when someone suffers. Imagine that (there's no heaven.. ; ) you deconvert a person, or rather make him/her start think (I don't believe that anyone could lose faith in one discussion as it takes much time and thinking). He could then become agnostic a humanist or a not-completely-mature-atheist. If he then happened to be down because he would feel somehow lost without God, who will he accuse? Of course you. I can remember that one of my colleagues after I had told him I was an atheist said to me: "You know what? You could have exerted yourself to some elegant lie. I don't want to continue this conversation." Some people don't want to question their beliefs. This actually comes under pig ignorance.

European Union

I think that the EU is a great chance for people to get used to some kind of international community. I'm only afraid of them getting prejudiced against it. Opinions on us joining the EU are divided in Poland. Some people want it and some are much afraid of it. If our membership shows to be beneficial everything will be on the right way to further centralization. But if not? I can see what happens in Poland after joining NATO. It was to be so nice. And now what? Disadvantages outwiegh the benefits. Poland has become an international military training ground (out training grounds are very attractive since we have many forests and varied terrain), plus more bureaucracy and chaos in the army than ever before. If you add the mess caused by health service and retirement system reforms you get the picture of overall chaos and uncertainty that reigns Poland. This country is too weak to handle so many changes in such a short time. Therefore I'm quite sceptic about us benefitting from joining the EU now. Maybe later.

Marx

He was a quite wise man. It's like with Jesus - I agree with most of his teachings but I'm not a Christian (anymore), the same with Marx - I have found that many of his thoughts make sense but I'm not a Marxist. Actually all well known philosophers have told something sensible. And I try to choose only those right pieces. I think that Marx an Engels have become so unpopular because of what happened in the Sovit Union after communists started governing. All ideologies get simplified and bent when they are used by psychos wanting to rule the world. Take atheism as an example. It was oficially announced as the state ideology of USSR in 1917. After WWII it was often overused esp. in communist countries for political and ideological indoctrination. This fact has made people develop bad connotations about atheism (as if there weren't enough of them already..) contributing to its shallowing.

European Union

I see European Union as a good step, the only available step in broadly the right direction. I want to see International organizations. I want to see a blurring of the distinction of nationhood. The nation is basically an evil entity. At present it is a necessary evil. The only characteristic that truly defines what is a nation is the capacity to war, or at least the holding of the option to make war. California is not a nation, Somalia is. The difference is the capacity to make a decision to go to war. If European Union can make the status of the nationality and war making powers of France, Germany and Poland as ambiguous as those of Wales or Bavaria then Union is wholly a good move.

How it will work in practice is difficult to imagine. There is bound to be pain. As it is now interest rates and currency rates in one part of one country seem set at inappropriate levels because they are set according to the whole country. We see pockets of boom and bust, some parts of large countries like the Deep South of the USA and much of the North of England would be better off with their own local currency so they could compete better. Making a super-state will make such problems even more intense. As it is many parts of Ireland (now with its currency linked to the Euro) are suffering very badly because their local economy is booming but as interest rates remain at low levels suitable for Germany this is causing house prices in Dublin to escalate in an obscene manner.

I do not have the economic answers. My economic analysis is limited to understanding the extent of my ignorance. The problems of large states need to be tackled. The way the USA operates could be a model, that is a very large and diverse economy with a single economic policy, currency and interest rate. If it can work across a continent it can work across a planet, but hopefully we can find a way to make it work even better.

Painkillers

I have to disagree on this point. Perhaps it is just the way I am, I have a supreme faith in truth, honesty is the best policy. I have always been brought up to, as the English phrase goes, tell the truth and shame the devil. There is a strength to be found in the truth. Perhaps my faith in truth is misplaced, I suspect it could well be, but it is one part of my character that I am particularly proud of. I will always tell the truth unless it will really incriminate me, I have an innate cowardice too, so I do sometimes lie, but I think I always avoid the simple convenient lie. Many people will lie to save the effort of giving a fuller explanation. I tend to give the full explanation even to people who don't appreciate it.

I think atheists should stand up and be counted. Perhaps things are different in societies like yours, only you can know how dangerous your beliefs could be to you. But in England there is no danger. I stand up and make my point. I take every reasonable opportunity to express my beliefs. When I get forms to fill in that ask me for my Christian name (some still do) I cross it out. That has just reminded me, I must remember next time I see my doctor to make sure I am not classed as Church of England in my medical records.

Marx

I have to confess that I have never had much time for Marx or most of his theories. At University I had to read a few of his books. Instant insomnia cure. Tedious and convoluted. Perhaps a legacy of his German upbringing? Anyway, I found his prose soporific and his theories unconvincing. Some of his broad ideas are reasonable but they did not translate well into my own thoughts. I probably do share many of his beliefs and assumptions but almost certainly through memetic infections via other sources. Few of my socialist ideas come in any way directly from his texts. I have absorbed Marxist ideas through other more approachable vectors. Dialectical materialism seems like alchemy and astrology. I share many of his conclusions but not his methods.

Jesus Christ

I think there is a fundamental difference between the Confucian golden rule and the Christian golden rule. The Confucian rule is a negative rule, avoiding doing things you would not want done to you. The Christian rule (whether it is directly and originally from the carpenter of Nazareth is another point) is much stronger and more positive. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. That is a much more powerful rule, and also much harder to follow. The difference between the two rules can be seen as similar to these two statements:-

"Darling you are attractive."

and

"Darling you are not unattractive."

Only a (badly programmed) computer would see them as identical in meaning.

I am quite strongly influenced by Christian memes, which have been passed to me by various indirect and filtered routes. Just in the same way as I am influenced by Marxist memes.

Motto

Thank you for the motto. I hope it is an accurate translation, I will have to trust you, my knowledge of Polish is extremely small. I am not quite sure how I will use it yet.

Socialism

The Soviet Union and other Communist countries showed that the system as defined by the Communist parties was not efficient. The state socialism model failed. That does not mean that socialism has been discredited. There is room for a mixed economy of privately owned organizations, small private companies, individual traders, workers co-operatives, consumers co-operatives and some forms of state sponsored enterprises. Some things are simply most efficiently run as monopolies; such as local water supply, allowing that to be run entirely for private profit is not in the best interests of all concerned. Some form of social control, possibly including public ownership, is sensible.

At the other end of the spectrum some businesses require private ownership to exist at all. Enterprises that are risky and innovative would never begin in any form of committee dominated organization, whether a state concern or large co-operative. Such committees cannot afford to take the risks of failure. This is the powerhouse of the modern economy, innovation, it requires profit and free movement of capital, although it need not be totally free movement of capital or unrestricted or untaxed profit.

In order that the economy as a whole remains vibrant there has to be success and failure. Propping up old inefficient factories to produce cars that the Italians stopped buying ten years before was not a good strategy for Poland. It does not make sense to subsidize failing industries; it makes more sense to buy them out and close them down humanely and dispose of the plant and surplus labour in a reasonable way. Rather than pay men to build products that people do not really want the money could be better spent in re-location packages to move the workers to where they are needed, or to tempt new employers to move in to employ the people where they live.

In agriculture radical changes are required too. Paying farmers to produce unwanted food by ruining the soil and the landscape is madness. If there is too much production at present the way to improve matters is to restrict intensive farming practices. Ban heavy use of fertilizers and pesticides. Tax food produced on enormous prairie farms, encourage farmers to give up intensive food production in hedgerows, woodlands and nature corridors. Pay farmers to convert to organic production methods, which would mean more employment, less over production and possibly healthier and better food.

All the current EU food subsidies are aimed at producing food when they could be aimed at managing our rural environment and still have similar welfare implications for farmers. Wouldn't it be a better world in which farmers received their handout of taxpayer's money in the form of rewards for sustainable use of the land rather than as a subsidy to produce unwanted food?

English

Thanks for nothing. You answered my questions and at the same time didn't. You just confirmed that I had imagined it right. I read your explanation and it didn't reveal anything unexpected. It reminded me a bit of when I first had sex, I had imagined how it would be so much that the reality was slightly disappointing because it was similar to what I expected, any differences between the reality and the expectation seemed to blur away. Yes, that is what I expected, and somehow I feel cheated of a further insight. I suppose that is the penalty of being bright, fewer surprises. ;-)

If you want to express some idea that works better in Polish please feel free to give me the long-winded explanation. I am interested in language and the way that languages help or hinder our thoughts, so feel free to dish it out from the other barrel or whatever.

Have you read Steven Pinker's The Language Instinct ? I found that a really interesting book. Just because my language skills are one dimensional it does not mean that I find the subject boring. I would be interested in any strange and convoluted language structures in slang or crude expressions that young people in Poland use. Not a list of rude words but the more elaborate phrases. For example the expression half rice, half chips which is a recent phrase used to denote bisexuality based on the recent custom of eating Chinese food when too drunk to know your own mind, many Chinese take-aways allow you to order a main dish with a half portion of boiled rice and a half portion of chips. It makes quite an interesting phrase. Don't feel that you have to give me a list in your next reply but whenever you think up a reply and an expression like that comes to you please share it with me. Another phrase I have to share with you comes from my days of CB radio, the phrase used to denote a car-transporter lorry, it always cracks me up when I think about it; mobile carpark.

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Aah, I'm fresh again. It's so good that someone invented these winter holidays. Christian customs are not all stupid : )

European Union

I agree that joining it would be good and prospective but it's our opinion and we belong to a minority. At least in Poland peasants constitute for about half the society so their votes are quite important. And they are always unsatisfied you know, they complain every year, no matter how good the harvest. They are much afraid of Polish market becoming flooded by duty-free food from Western Europe (and genetically changed English tomatoes ;-) and that's enough for them to vote against joining. That's what I don't like about democracy - ignorance wins. Apart from that, if any grates* should occur shortly after joining the EU, the people would become very hostile towards any projects of globalization/centralization of any kind. And that be a 'bear favour'** for the idea of world government.

*grates - exact translation from Polish, meaning problems, disagreements and difficulties that occur esp. during some changes

** bear favour - Polish idiom, a favour that was done with good intentions but did more harm than good, esp. because of ignorance and lack of skill

Marx

I did not read any of his works either. I am not that interested in philosophy and economics. It's just like with religions - I only have a rough notion what they are all about and know some basic facts. But I never studied any of them, my knowledge is based on what I hear from other people, TV etc. It belongs to so called 'general knowledge' which I think every educated man should posess. You just soak it up from everyday life. Apart from that I would have to be really despetate to read "Economy of socialism'. You must be right on that insomnia cure thing - my dad once had to read that book. He confirms your opinion : ) The Language Instinct No, I did not read it, but it looks like I'll have to put it on my 'to read' list along with The Brave New World. For now I am satisfied with ingesting The Selfish Gene (Polish edition appeared in 1996..), now I'm working on Dalai Lama's The Way To Happiness. I must say it's a good book, it should be recommended to all those who still search for good rules for life. I find that many ideas expressed there are very similar (actually identical) to what wise laic atheists propagate. At least one religion is on our side : )

 

Michal

Brave New World

This the problem is a tough one isn't it? I don't know the rules as to when I should use the and when I shouldn't, I obviously picked it up very early, too early to understand it in a way that I can teach.

Brave New World is a reasonably good novel by Aldous Huxley, the title comes from a quote from Shakespeare, I think it is from The Tempest.

How many goodly creatures are there here! How beauteous mankind is! O brave new world, That has such people in't.

The Tempest (1611) act 5, sc. 1, l. 182

 

Where was I? Yes, Brave New World is a reasonably interesting science fiction novel that brings out some interesting ideas. Eugenics, artificial happiness, drugs, social engineering; all are given an airing. You are "supposed" to come away from the book thinking that all these ideas are terrible, but I don't. I can't help thinking like I do when watching a Road Runner cartoon, OK, it didn't quite work exactly according to plan, but why not try a slight variation on that plan rather than jettison it all together? Perhaps if I strap the Acme rocket on a bit more firmly, and stand a little further away from the cliff...

The Language Instinct is a superb book. I read it last year and I thoroughly enjoyed it. It has to be one of my top recommendations to anybody who shows an interest in thinking and language and evolution. I think soon I will do a recommended reading list for the site. I have also been toying with the idea of having a link to an online bookshop, recommend books and get paid for doing it. It seems a very interesting idea, I am not totally sure that I can do it with a clear conscience. That is a strange concept, I spend most of my waking hours encouraging people to spend money on things. In the shop I have two competing ideas in my head; suggesting reasonable value for money purchases and maximising my own commission, many times there is no conflict but sometimes there is, and I am erratic in my response, sometimes I give disinterested advice against my own best interests, sometimes I go for the money. Whenever there is a clash I will feel guilty whatever way I decide. The products I like best in the shop are those that are good for everybody, quality worth paying more for.

Holidays

Winter festivals and holidays are little to do with Christianity. The Roman empire had plenty of them before Constantine was converted. It makes a lot of sense to celebrate the time when the days stop getting shorter, the beginning of the new year.

EU

It seems everybody has their own reasons to be for or against it. We idealistic types see it as a step towards a larger and more secure structure that will fulfil the promise of government in a better way. Others see it as a way to protect their jobs or as a threat to their jobs. Farmers can only see as far as next year's prices. The right wing media in this country, that is the popular press, see European Union as a bad thing because it "weakens Britain". There are people going around saying "Save the pound, save democracy" without ever explaining what the real problem is supposed to be. To me the pound is just a measure of how much I owe, it is no great symbol of my nation, I really don't care about it. As long as my money works, is acceptable for payment, I don't worry too much about what is on it. Although I do applaud the recent move to put Charles Darwin on the £10 note. I would also like to see something other than that woman on the notes. At least our notes don't say "In God we trust".


Thanks for the pictures, is it OK to publish them? What about some captions or explanations as to the content? Who is the girl? She is quite pretty, she reminds me of my first girlfriend. Where are you in the September picture? Is it Stonehenge, or somewhere similar? There was no great surprise when I saw your pictures, while I had not exactly formed a clear mental picture of you those real images instantly filled the space in my imagination. Perhaps this is a skill that you can acquire with practice, I am quite used to going onto websites and reading through the material and then finding a picture of the author later, as time has gone on I am less and less affected by the image. Is that because I no longer try to make a clear mental picture anymore in case I am proved wrong? Perhaps.

The town square picture looks so very European, the right wing British media had tried to give us the impression that Eastern Europe was under the boot of communism, they would not have used images like that to represent Poland, they would have taken the trouble to find some drab concrete apartment blocks instead.

Martin


When I was your age I had a large collection of badges that I wore on my jacket, I am trying to remember what they were. I remember Born again atheist and Keep in upright position when full of liquid. There were others too. I think I might have had one that read Marxism died with Groucho.

Remember what I said about not being surprised about your picture? I have just had a really shocking experience, seeing the author's picture of Steven Pinker. He looks like the lead singer of a 70s "Progressive Rock" band! And recently I saw Jared Diamond on TV, I imagined him as a bit cooler than that, he looks like the sort of bloke who would carry around a "Repent! The End of the World is Nigh!" banner.

Pictures

Publish them in whatever form you want. Only one restriction from my side: don't include any faces other than mine (ie. my family, the crowd doesn't count). This also applies to any future images. The girl you asked about is my sister. She'll be 17 in February. She is my favourite sibling (and the only one I have ;-). We can always reach an agreement. Even if we don't agree..

You guessed: it was Sonehenge. Actually it was the greatest disappointment in England (the other was that I did not see any member of the Royal Family or meet Mr Bean in the street :-) All images of Stonehenge that I saw before made me develop a rather 'legendary' notion about it. I mainly saw it on pictures made during sunsets where it looked marvellous. Of course I did not expect it to have any magical glow but I thought it should be at least twice as big, and.. complete. Apart from that the most obtrusive view was that of Japanese tourists standing all around and making photos. If any jokes about the Japanese would happen to come into life they would probably show them as ubiquituous tourists with compact cameras! (it must be hard to believe that I am not prejudiced : )

Brave New World

I wonder how the title sounds after translation into Polish. It cannot be performed without losing the word play. I don't even know if there is any Polish edition of this book (it's a bit ignorant of me..). Actually I would be happy if I spotted it in original version but it's unlikely in Poland. Sooner I could buy a copy abroad this summer (I still regret stinting 10 pounds on Bertrand Russel's book about philosophy when I was in the UK, I don't quite remember the title).

Picking up rules

It's a very interesting problem. I've always been curious about mechanisms of learning, esp. artificial intelligence and neural networks. It's one of my favourites disciplines of knowledge along with evolution and self-regulating systems. I once wanted to become a programmer but after a year of writing hopelessly simple toy-programs in C++ and assembler I gave it up and decided that I'll be of better use as a scientist : ) One interesting thing that I read somewhere was that some famous American programmer (no, it wasn't Bill Gates) once told that "You really know how to do something only if you can program it". Quite original point of view, no? I think that now it is not as valid as it used to be in times of algorythm-based AI. Neural networks that researchers make have a quite decent ability to learn and they still have no idea about how it happens! I too have problems with explaining to others some things that work for me. It takes a mind like Richard Dawkins to see through processes which evereybody thinks they understand.

Notes In God we trust.? LOL. Which country has such notes? I'm dying of curiosity to see them. I must check what is written on ours, maybe something equally bombastic (or rather pathetic).

And the idea with Darwin - it's a good one (why not? - he deserves it more than most folks currently adorning the IOU tickets), you have my support. BTW, you have brought up an important issue there: Globalization and the loss of nation personality - I'll write about it next time.

Book recommendations I think that you should try your luck in this matter. You do great job running the site but probably (rather more than just probably..) don't have much profit out of it. I think that the guys from Amazon or whatever should go for it when they see how seriously developing the site is. Perhaps that would be a bit like with singers - they are paid for doing what they would pay to do - but if there's an opportunity why not use it? (Besides that the payment/usefulness coefficients of your and singers' work are incomparable). So don't have any qualms : )

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The US currency is covered in Masonic symbols and references to God. I can't remember all the details. Darwin started appearing on the £10 note a few months ago. The media is always going on about the security features, counterfeit prevention, and says that is one of the reasons he was chosen, because his beard is full of detail.

Stonehenge.

I have never been but all the pictures I see seem to be of something considerably smaller and duller than people talk about. Is that my problem? I think not. I have no difficulty imagining men with simple tools building it, I have pity for anybody who considers it a great mystery.

Japanese

I know what you mean about Japanese tourists, they are so very eager and they have to get photographs of everything. I have heard that the Japanese are very good at every game with clear rules, e.g. you do well in electronics by making a smaller and more powerful version each year, simple rules so the Japanese do well. They are less good at making up the rules as they go. An interesting idea. But they certainly understand the rules of European sightseeing; palaces, castles, monuments and thousands of photographs.

Our currency does not have any ideological phrases or symbols (I checked specially : )

I'm satisfied with the neutrality of our banknotes - there are only images of our kings on them. And most of those guys also have detailed facial hair...

Globalization and culture loss

Everybody is lamenting that globalization is so bad because it entails dumping region specific customs, folklore, languages (and religious rituals, fairy tales and superstitions). They say that one has to be affiliated to some culture or else one is lost, cannot find himself. I think it's nonsense. I don't want to belong to so and so community only because I was born in this and not the other place. I think that saying It's better because it's ours is complete bullshit. I want to be able to choose where I want to belong, I don't want to have any way of living forced upon me, I don't need no roots. The only past that I want to have is that of my own, that I created with my friends, the people I choose. I don't feel that the past of Poland is my past. I do not feel any pride because of any won wars or a shame for any lost ones, no matter how long ago it was. I do not want to be judged by my origin or the reputation that my rationed society has earned (no matter how good or bad it is). An average anti-globalizationist could now say that the world will always be divided into some regions and cultures. Yes, but you will be able to choose freely what society you want to live in, what views you want to have (you might be surprised that I wrote it but still in the country what priest and the majority says is truth and poorly educated people do not even have a chance to oppose it because they are overwhelmed by too powerful memes - I'm sure that there could be many more atheists in the country if the social pressure wasn't so strong, most people are too weak even to begin questioning some views). What I like most about the internet is what others are most afraid of - it creates some virtual international societies contributing to neglecting local ones. But hey, is it really that bad? One coulld say: Don't sit so much in front of the computer, why don't you go to your aunt? But maybe I have nothing to say to my aunt. And on the Net I can keep in touch with people who have interests like me. I can see a good example based on educational system. In the primary school the class consisted of kids living in a given district. Zero compatibility. Some longer friendships were occasional, people did not understand each other very well, everyone had much different interests and views (some agreements occured accidentaly but generally it was a random assemblage). In secondary school things looked better - the people fitted at least roughly. And at the university it's actually ideal (maybe apart from religious beliefs but you cannot have everything..). There's a big probability in reaching an agreement between students even though they are from two different ends of the country. The same with 'normal' societies. They should be comprised of people that want to be together, fit each other and not just were born in one place. (BTW, can you remember what I told about war and the patriots killing each other thing?)

Languages.

I would not cry if someday all languages simply disappeared and only one left.That would make things so much easier. And I do not think that some cultural richness would be lost in that process. I see languages only from the pragmatic point of view and so called richness is nothing but a nuisance for me. I just want to communicate as easily and efficiently as posible, I don't require anything more from languages. Cultural richness is not endangered, I think. It's just not possible for several milliard people to like one style of artwork, music, type of furniture etc. There will always be groups creating something unique. Countries and any artificial divisions are not necessary here.

And now some expressions from Polish that I like Wazeliniarz (exact translation: vaseliner, meaning: toady) - a person that is so keen on earning a good opinion by flattery that he could use Vaseline to enter somebody's arsehole - another exact translation (extreme, clearly seen flattery), I think you call it ass licking.

onomatopoeic words glut - something very soft (half-liquid) and sticky (like snot, clot etc.). Young girls would say "uugh" at the very sight of it.

faflun - a longer version of previous thing, esp. a dangling one, which has an interesting tendency to stick its loose end to anyone who's too close ; ) (I hope you'll know how to pronounce them, they're written in Polish. This time I avoided words with Polish letters. Do you have any Polish fonts so that I could send you some words containing those strange signs next time? If not, I can attach Polish Arial or something else to the next message.)

Wazeliniarz

Thanks for that one. It could almost be used as-is in English.

Arse licking my man, arse, I'm not some colonial chappie from across the pond. It does no good to lick one's ass, a few good strokes from the whip does wonders for asses.

Polish fonts.

I have no idea what a Polish font would look like so please, send me a couple, one san serif like arial and perhaps one with a bit of old fashioned Polish character in the serifs. I use Windows 98 so a .TTF font would be best. With such a font I could make your motto look a bit better with a real old fashioned and typically Polish font. Maybe even three fonts if you could? One simple sans serif, one serif and one highly stylized one? Then I can install them as standard and you can encode your e-mails as appropriate and I will see it exactly as you send it.

Globalization.

I agree. I will write in more detail when I have more time.

That is excellent analysis. How about expanding on it a little and doing it as a Guest Zone piece? It is terrific stuff. The Guest Zone will be given a face-lift soon and I will be making a lot more of it. It should get more readers on the Guest Zone, and those that appreciate your ideas will then click on to the Polish Spirit pages. It does need to be a bit longer for a stand-alone page but I am sure you could expand it quite easily.

Milliard

Do you use this word in Poland? When I was 17 I learned what milliard was, a quaint old fashioned word equivalent to "an American billion", one thousand million, as opposed to the old fashioned British billion of one million million. Now the academic community has established the convention of using the US term as standard. I would doubt whether more than 20% of the British population even know that a billion was once defined as a million million. Only people who want to appear well read and slightly foppish use milliard. Richard Dawkins does sometimes; he does seem to enjoy this kind of posing. If you read his works in English you will see he avoids the issue by using the long phrases such as million million. I get the impression that he likes to be a bit old fashioned and precise, and to assert his status as a British, European and perhaps particularly, non-American academic.

Other than that the only benefit of milliard is that it has different rhymes.

Hello Martin,

I like the new look of your site very much. And I'm delighted with the feeling of the comfortable smoothness when opening a page : )) But do not simplify the main page any further, there's nothing to cut out anymore. I wish I had more time for reading the new content but it is impossible, at least this week. Now I'm totally not in the subject (did I put it right? I mean I don't know what the discussion is about at the moment). So I will just leave the site be for a time and focus only on keeping up email exchanges with you.

I have an interesting problem. Can you think of some arguments that would convert an agnostic? I mean the best arguments. The point is that I have no idea on how to convince anyone who doesn't already agree with me that rational thinking is more important than trusting your feelings. I have an impression that all well educated, well-read and experienced peopole who are not atheists find it unacceptable to rely only on your reason. It is caused by the most deeply indoctrinated notion that "there is something more to it than you understand". And they consider anyone denying it immature and/or dangerous. And the worst thing is that most of those people are so sure about their great wisdom which has come to them somehow only by virtue of their age that they feel offended when someone dares accuse them of being wrong. I've tried to solve this problem for very long but I just can't make it. I hope you have something to say as a newsgroup veteran : )

And what do you think about the Holy War? Maybe I'll sound funny but I had thought that if such a thing should happen, Muslims would be involved...

Michal

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How did you learn to ride a bicycle? I bet you had a smaller one with extra wheels which you could remove when you no longer needed them. The time came when those extra small wheels contributed so little to your confidence and stability that they got in the way. Religion is the stablizers, the training wheels. Remove them, they have served their purpose, ride on faster than before, as sure as before, you have developed your own morality you do not need an artificial support anymore.

Nice image? It might work with your friend. Remember that religion does not cause morality. Good training in morality is needed but it does not need to be based on false images and false beliefs.

 

I know what you mean about the idea that there must be more to it than we understand. It is deeply ingrained in many people. If only you knew more about Catholicism you would agree with the Pope, if you understood what Buddhism was about you would be a Buddhist, etc. This attitude saves people from the trouble of understanding anything themselves, they just trust that there is a better answer out there and they will take it on faith. To counter that argument needs time. You need to get them to listen to you. You need to explain that in order to understand your point of view they have to do a little work and they must let you develop your ideas. If they want to understand your position they have to listen to it. Once you have got their agreement on that (I have never managed it yet!) you can start to explain. You need to tell them to clear their head of all alternative explanations for the way the world is and to listen carefully.

The world we live in evolved. It began with simple physics, then simple chemistry, later simple biology. Forget about good and evil, right and wrong, they came later. In the beginning the world was simple. No life. Life was a spectacular accident but one which need only happen once. The nature of replication takes care of it. In an enormous universe with an enormous timescale fabulously unlikely things are bound to happen pretty much all of the time somewhere. The spontaneous assembly of chemicals necessary to begin replication is unlikely on the normal human scale, but we are not talking about this happening in any given rockpool or any given deep ocean vent. It could have happened in any one of millions of them over a time scale so vast that you can't begin to appreciate it. Some calculations suggest life arose on Earth within a mere 50 million years of the formation of the planet. Wow. You can't do anything in 50 million years can you? Well, actually, if you are talking about the chemistry of molecules at this scale 50 milliseconds is a long time.

Once replication has begun there must be evolution. You don't have to explain it, challenge them to prove otherwise. Challenge them to explain how it could not happen. Evolution is a mathematical certainty, it cannot be denied accept as an act of faith. If there is a population of replicators facing a selection pressure which is not completely random then there will be a differential accumulation of whatever variations are more fitted to that environment. That is axiomatic. The pigheaded who want to disprove an axiom call it instead a tautology, I don't care what they call it they cannot deny that it follows from basic logic. Evolution cannot be denied any more than multiplication or subtraction can be denied. They are all mathematical certainties. Evolution is a law of logic. The origin of species by evolution is a theory. Like gravity is a theory. Denying it does not do you any good and it does not change the reality. There could well be significant pieces missing in our understanding of this situation, but I don't expect any of them to be found in old books or in the daydreams of the deluded individuals history calls prophets.

Some people think that there is more to life than logic. Some people like things not being explicable. Many women in particular are attracted to the bullshit sciences, areas of so-called learning in which some long dead expert has made up some ideas with no obvious prior research and this has been accepted as the wisdom of the ancients. Well, wisdom does not come with age and it does not come simply when the mists of time have removed all the evidence of how it did emerge. Mysticism, prophesy and the bullshit sciences (astrology, phrenology, numerology, etc. etc.) claim some kind of validity out of long standing mystery. This makes no sense. Mysteries are events or supposed events that cannot be satisfactorily explained. Or are 'explained' by the use of magic, the classic magic trick is to use a foreign word to 'explain' the inexplicable. Sanskrit is great for this. A whole language that nobody uses for science any more but anybody can use to baffle outsiders.

You doubt this? That is because your Xhatk is out of balance with your Ghhychd on the great qzxiyc that is your life. Now do you understand? That will be $45 please. Cash only.

Reason is all we have. We have no facility to understand truth. If you doubt that it is up to you to explain how such an ability could develop in our species. How could it evolve? Eyes evolved because light sensitivity was useful, even in the crudest degree. Eyes evolved because there was a continuing gradient of benefit to be obtained from better and better eyes. They gained higher acuity, they distinguished between colours, they developed sophisticated processing circuitry that we are now only just able to mimic with the latest video cameras. All these features were directly useful to us as primates. That is why we developed our eyes in the way we did. But how could we develop a sense for truth or directly perceiving God? How would that work? How would it begin to evolve?

We do not take in all the information around us and then filter out the stuff we want to ignore. Our eyes do not see infra red or ultra violet. Our ears do not hear the infra-sound calls of elephants or the ultrasound calls of bats. Our brains do not take in truth and then through meditation we learn to remove our filters. That is nonsense. (Feel free to insert a Sanskrit word here if you want.) There are no filters, there is no truth. If people perceive that they have tapped into the truth of the Universe they are mistaken, deluded. The onus of explanation is on those people who make such claims to prove them, to explain how such an insight is possible. We have no problem in explaining it. People often have strong beliefs in things which the outside world knows not to be true. It is only the idea that the religious should be tolerated that prevents us from treating these people with the appropriate drugs and therapies. If they counter that by saying that millions of people have these ideas that can be explained easily too. These ideas are easily spread by copying and they also arise spontaneously.

Truth is not democratic. Most people thought the Earth was flat and that diseases were caused by curses, witchcraft, demons or gods. They were wrong. Millions of people are still wrong about many, many things. Nothing can ever be achieved by setting aside logic and reason. We do not have all the answers, we do not have even most of the questions, but we will build a better understanding of this world and our part in it, but only if we continue to use reason.

Holy War

The war is of their making. The small handful of extremists have declared war on America for no obvious good reason. It is the terrorists who are trying to make it into a war of Islam against the rest. It suits their purposes, trying to recruit millions of people to its cause. We must be clear that this is not a war against Islam, it is a war of self defence, shading into preventative measures to secure a better peace. It is a just war but it is not a Holy War. America does not want a Holy War.

This war does stem from religion. It stems from the profoundly weird notion of the right to exist of the state of Israel. Religion and politics always make a very potent mixture. When people identify themselves and their religion with a nation state with the subsequent right to make war the world becomes an inherently dangerous place. Perhaps one day we can marginalize religion in a way that will allow it to slowly fade away without giving it a reason to fight. I doubt it, but I live in hope, it is worth keeping looking for the way to secure that goal.

Michal 3
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