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Repeat a lie often enough and people begin to accept it as the truth, but only if it is a really big and audacious lie.
It is a huge and monstrous lie that anti-Semitism lies behind the left's support for the cause of the Palestinians and for resistance to the concept of Zionism.
Resistance to Zionism among the left is founded on the idea that Zionism is an inherently racist ideology, which it clearly is. The left are not racist they are anti-racist, they are automatically drawn towards sympathy for the downtrodden, the victim and the stateless. That is why the liberal left have a long history of supporting Jews against true anti-Semitism in Europe and America, it is also why they oppose Israel's illegal and oppressive occupation of Palestinian lands.
Zionism is a profoundly and unavoidably racist doctrine that states that Jews have a right to a homeland that their ancestors left centuries ago, regardless of the rights of the people who have been living there, in many cases living on the same land for over nineteen centuries. How can this concept possibly sit comfortably with modern definitions of citizenship and land rights? "God gave us this land" doesn't and shouldn't ever count for anything, especially since God doesn't seem to have given any land to anybody else or told anybody other than the Jews that he gave them that particular land.
It is perfectly true that vituperative attacks on the state of Israel by many Muslims are aggravated by true anti-Semitism, by hatred of Jews as people, Judaism as a religion and a Judaic state as an aspiration. This is a hatred based upon religious difference nurtured down the centuries by Muslim doctrines. In addition to Muslim hatred of Jews there is a rump of traditional anti-Semitism based on Christian dogmas and folk myths, this was common in Eastern Europe but it is old fashioned and dying out. Traditional anti-Semitism is the stance of people who haven't got any views about foreign policy apart from not liking foreigners much, such sentiments have little or no impact on the debate about Israel and Palestine. In addition to that there is the studied anti-Semitism of the avowedly racist neo-Nazis which is as much of an affectation as the skinhead uniform, it is learned behaviour and as false and contrived as the speech patterns of a whigger. Racist and fascist parties are in a bit of a cleft stick about Israel and Palestine, endorsing separate nations for separate races seems to be consistent with their stance of wanting to expel foreigners but on the other hand they have their Hitler fetish to satisfy which does require them to make a special case out of Jews despite the fact that the state of Israel is otherwise a perfect model of the kind of country they would like to run, a nation that uses force to gain advantages for its own people and regards its own citizens lives to be worth infinitely more than the lives of foreigners.
However the opposition to Israeli state thuggery by the liberal left has nothing in common with anything to do with anti-Semitism. To assert that all attacks on the policies of the state of Israel are motivated by hatred of Jews is a travesty. It is also a calculated knowing lie designed to discredit the opposition to Israeli aggression. This lie cannot be allowed to go unchallenged. It doesn't make any sense. The liberal left are not racist, they abhor racism in all its forms, that is why they are not natural allies of the racist Jewish state. A multiethnic secular state of Palestine that allowed all the inhabitants of that land to peacefully co-exist and recognize each other's right to pursue private religion is the goal. The state of Israel's racist immigration policies are anathema to any liberal, the idea that all Jews are welcomed with open arms but anybody else has to jump through hoops is simply unacceptable in the modern world. Citizenship and immigration policies should not be defined by race or religion.
The rest of the world has long left behind the notion that it is perfectly reasonable to annexe land you conquered in a war, even a war that began as repulsing aggression. The occupation of Gaza, the Golan Heights and the West Bank is not acceptable under international law. The way that these lands have been taken over by settlers and divided up to the disadvantage of the indigenous Arabs is wholly unacceptable. Calling the occupied lands Judea and Samaria is also bluster and obfuscation. By that sort of reckoning Scotland should be in Ireland and all Gypsies should be living in India. People move. The fact that some people kept records of where their distant ancestors used to live doesn't change anything. You can't kick people out of lands their ancestors have been living in for centuries, Americans should recognize this, surely. If everybody had to move back to where their ancestors lived three thousand years ago there would be a bit of upheaval to say the least. The typical African American has ancestors in Europe, North America and half a dozen or more countries in Africa.
I have absolutely nothing against Jewish people except for resistance to some of the foreign policies of Israel. I find the idea that some Jews might think that I hate them as people is obscene. I can understand that some people could be stupid enough to believe the ridiculous notion that all opposition to Israeli state policy is caused by racist hatred of Jews but I don't buy the idea that the majority of any group could be so stupid. This means that many of the people spreading this idea must know that it is slanderous and founded upon nothing more than Machiavellian self-interest, using whatever strategy seems best suited to strengthen their cause, attempting to discredit their opponents.
I strongly suggest that anybody who is called anti-Semitic for resisting the illegal and immoral policies of the state of Israel should consider the possibility of suing for libel or slander. How can it possibly be right to attempt to get free expression of a difference of opinion on foreign policy to be classed as a hate crime? This is an orchestrated attempt to silence legitimate criticism in an entirely cynical way.
Below are a few replies I made to somebody who repeatedly called me an anti-Semite for daring to criticize Judaism.
The posts come from June 2005
I noticed you posted your reply ONE MINUTE after posting a reply to another message in this thread. I'm sorry for trespassing so much on your precious time while I try to defend myself against your libel.
I am giving you one last chance to read and digest my posts before I take this matter further. I will not stand idly by while I am being libelled.
I am not anti-Semitic. I do not spend all my time talking about Jews. I am not subscribed to any Jewish newsgroups, I dropped by alt.religion.christianity and noticed the word atheist in the thread title. You have attacked the wrong target. You have made a very grave error. Your posts libel me, not some internet racist lunatic posting under a false name. Your posts grossly libel me personally, a named individual, unambiguously and repeatedly.
It is quite preposterous, absurd and fundamentally cowardly to paint any form of criticism of Judaism and Zionism as being based on hatred of Jews. I am not going to stand to be called an anti-Semite. It is libellous and factually incorrect. I have no hatred for Jews. I have said nothing that has not been said at various times by Jews.
I criticize Judaism and Zionism from an atheist standpoint. Judaism and Zionism are deeply flawed by their inherent racism. Of course some people who attack Judaism and Zionism do so because of their pathological hatred of Jews, but not all. Many do so out of attitudes that are the opposite of hateful, sectarian, racist or anti-Jewish. Many who share the same reservations as me are Jewish. I cannot understand the hatred of Jews, I have never understood it. I have never been remotely concerned with any form of Jew-hating agenda. I have never been abused by a Jew (except you) I have never felt threatened by a Jew and I have never considered Jews to be sub-human, too clever by half or hell-bound Christ killers. I pity and despise anti-Semites as being the most pathetic of sad losers and have never been remotely interested in their agenda. I'm far too bright to be an anti-Semite.
But having said all that I stand by my assertion that it is the notion of being the only god's chosen people which has caused many of the problems of hatred, fear and persecution that have been visited upon the Jews. People resent being called inferior and cannot understand how being "the unchosen" can be anything else but a badge of inferiority. If Europe was dominated by Mithraism rather than Christianity things might have been different. It is the fact that both Christians and Jews recognize that each other are probably worshipping the same same god, but in the (to them) wrong way that causes the problems. If they thought they were worshipping a different god they probably wouldn't bother about each other's beliefs at all, just like Hindus and Christians regard each other largely with indifference, regardless of whoever was the minority community. For Jews, Christians and Muslims things cannot ever be that simple, to each of the three camps the others know the right god so their different conclusions must stem from deliberate and bloody-minded ignorance rather than the innocent variety. The existence of Jews is a sore point for Christians and Muslims alike. They cannot simply be dismissed as people who do not know the truth, if these people are praying to the One True God and doing so in a different way they must be wilfully ignoring His message.
People who have beliefs that are slightly different to your own but with a lot of common themes are often the most hated. In Belfast nobody beats up Jews until they find out whether they're Protestant Jews or Catholic Jews and of course the parable of the Good Samaritan depends on the baseline knowledge that everybody knew Jews distrusted the Samaritans because they worshipped the right god in the wrong way.
Anti-Semitism has roots in religion and racism. I am not religious, I am not racist and I do not hate Jews. How can I be anti-Semitic unless you have changed the definition to cover anybody who expresses any criticism of the beliefs or actions of any Jews or Jewish organization?
I don't do mealy-mouthed. I don't do politically correct. I say what I mean and mean what I say. I don't mean what you find it convenient to think I mean. I won't conform to your stereotype or pigeon hole just to make it easier for you to dismiss my views.
--
Martin Willett
http://mwillett.org
El Bleacho wrote:
> Martin Willett wrote:
>
>> I am giving you one last chance to read and digest my posts before
I
>> take this matter further. I will not stand idly by while I am
being
>> libelled.
>
>
> I say you are anti-Semitic. If you don't like the rights I have with
regard to free speech, then overthrow the government and take them away
from me. Until then, I say you are anti-Semitic.
>
>
>> I am not anti-Semitic. I do not spend all my time talking about
Jews.
>
>
> Liar. You have posted no less than a dozen posts just in the last
week disparaging Jews, Judaism, and Zion.
>
>
>> I am not subscribed to any Jewish newsgroups, I dropped by
>> alt.religion.christianity and noticed the word atheist in the
thread
>> title.
>
>
> You are in soc.culture.israel; you anti-Semitic liar. SOC.CULTURE.ISRAEL,
you moron. Can you read that, idiot?!?!?!
>
>> You have attacked the wrong target. You have made a very grave
>> error. Your posts libel me, not some internet racist lunatic posting
>> under a false name. Your posts grossly libel me personally, a
named
>> individual, unambiguously and repeatedly.
>
>
> Stop your crying, you idiot. You are the one posting anti-Semitic
posts in soc.culture.israel. If you don't want to be called anti-Semitic;
then stop posting in an Israeli group about how horrible Judaism is and
how evil Zionism is.
>
>
>> It is quite preposterous, absurd and fundamentally cowardly to
paint
>> any form of criticism of Judaism and Zionism as being based on
hatred
>> of Jews.
>
>
> Another anti-Semitic comment noted.
>
>
>> I am not going to stand to be called an anti-Semite.
>
>
> As long as you keep posting anti-Semitic posts; I will be here to
out you for it.
>
>
>> It is
>> libellous and factually incorrect. I have no hatred for Jews.
I have
>> said nothing that has not been said at various times by Jews.
>
>
> Your "he said it first so leave me alone" aproach is noted,
anti-Semite.
>
>
>> I criticize Judaism and Zionism from an atheist standpoint.
>
>
> Well gee - that sure makes your anti-Semitic comments OK then. Your
contention that it is OK to be anti-Semitic as long as you are an athiest
is moronic.
>
>
>> Judaism
>> and Zionism are deeply flawed by their inherent racism.
>
>
>
> Another anti-Semitic comment noted.
>
>
>> I
>> have never been abused by a Jew (except you)
>
>
> Admission of abusing Jews noted.
>
>
>
>> But having said all that I stand by my assertion that it is the
notion
>> of being the only god's chosen people which has caused many of the
>> problems of hatred, fear and persecution that have been visited
upon
>> the Jews. People resent being called inferior and cannot understand
>> how being "the unchosen" can be anything else but a badge
of
>> inferiority. If Europe was dominated by Mithraism rather than
>> Christianity things might have been different. It is the fact that
>> both Christians and Jews recognize that each other are probably
>> worshipping the same same god, but in the (to them) wrong way that
>> causes the problems. If they thought they were worshipping a
>> different god they probably wouldn't bother about each other's
>> beliefs at all, just like Hindus and Christians regard each other
>> largely with indifference, regardless of whoever was the minority
>> community. For Jews, Christians and Muslims things cannot ever be
>> that simple, to each of the three camps the others know the right
god
>> so their different conclusions must stem from deliberate and
>> bloody-minded ignorance rather than the innocent variety. The
>> existence of Jews is a sore point for Christians and Muslims alike.
>> They cannot simply be dismissed as people who do not know the truth,
>> if these people are praying to the One True God and doing so in
a
>> different way they must be wilfully ignoring His message.
>
>
>
> Anti-Semitic rant noted.
>
>
>> Anti-Semitism has roots in religion and racism. I am not religious,
I
>> am not racist and I do not hate Jews. How can I be anti-Semitic
>> unless you have changed the definition to cover anybody who expresses
>> any criticism of the beliefs or actions of any Jews or Jewish
>> organization?
>
>
> You have criticized the religion and Zion, you anti-Semite.
>
>
>
>> I don't do mealy-mouthed. I don't do politically correct. I say
what I
>> mean and mean what I say. I don't mean what you find it convenient
to
>> think I mean. I won't conform to your stereotype or pigeon hole
just
>> to make it easier for you to dismiss my views.
>
>
>
> Since you are not Israeli or Jewish; get out of our soc.culture.israel
group, and take your anti-Semitic views with you.
This is fascinating stuff. I pop into a newsgroup called
alt.religion.christianity and notice a thread entitled "Atheist's
Brains". Being an atheist I decide to see what has been discussed.
This was posted to: alt.talk.creationism,
alt.religion.christian.baptist, alt.religion.christian.biblestudy,
alt.religion.christianity, alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic
You then reply to this troll with a Jewish slanted troll, posted to
alt.talk.creationism, alt.religion.christian.baptist,
alt.religion.christian.biblestudy, alt.religion.christianity,
alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic
I respond to that with a short paragraph. That was sent also to
alt.talk.creationism, alt.religion.christian.baptist,
alt.religion.christian.biblestudy, alt.religion.christianity,
alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic
You reply to that calling me a frothing anti-Semite. You post to
alt.religion.christian.baptist, alt.religion.christian.biblestudy,
alt.religion.christianity, alt.talk.creationism AND soc.culture.israel
YOU added the Jewish newsgroup. And yet somehow you accuse me of
insensitivity for hauling "my anti-Semitism" all over a Jewish
newsgroup. That is ridiculous. You added the Jewish group and you left
it in for a further three replies in which you accuse me of
anti-Semitism and I defend myself against your studied ignorance.
And now you have the temerity (look it up) to accuse me of bad taste for
making dozens of anti-Semitic posts all over Jewish newsgroups.
All of this is obvious for anybody to check out. I am being libelled,
misrepresented and lied about. Anybody can verify that what I am saying
is true.
I have no desire to have my words appear in a Jewish newsgroup, I posted
a reply to your post which was posted to a bunch of Christian
fundamentalists. As soon as the thread moves off the subject of your
unjustified accusations of anti-Semitism I will quite happily trim the
group from the thread. Actually no, because I have nothing to say in
this thread except to defend myself from your absurd charge.
Look me up on Google and Google Groups. Please. I use my real name. I
have been posting on newsgroups for over five years. There is an
enormous amount of evidence out there that proves your hypothesis that
I
must be a frothing anti-Semite and obsessed with nothing else because I
made
one post that contained criticism of Judaism and I am not Jewish is
totally wide of the mark.
I am an atheist. Most of my newsgroup postings are on
religious/atheistic themes. The majority of my arguments and debates
have been with fundamentalist Christians but I also debate against
people with Muslim, Pagan, Jewish, Wiccan, Bahá'í and other
faiths. I do
not discriminate, I reject all religious faiths and I criticize all
religions. The freedom to be able to do that is the most precious
freedom that exists. The day when all comments on religion are shouted
down by believers will be a very poor day for humanity.
I am not a racist. I aim to see a single world government in which the
whole of humanity is the basic political unit. Racists don't think like
that. Being an atheist I don't have to have a weird religious theory to
account for the existence of Jews and their special status with God.
No
God, no special status. Savvy? Anti-Semitism comes from racism
and/or religion. I am not a nationalist. I am not a racist or an
anti-racist. I do not subscribe to the faith that all races must be
equal so don't you dare look to check in case you find they're not. To
me it is self-evident that all races produce people capable of
suffering, learning and excelling. I don't really care whether or not
they produce the same average scores in IQ tests or have the same
average
penis length and I see no reason to attack or fake the results if they
don't.
I have never understood (empathized with) anti-Semitism because I am
neither
religious nor racist. I have never felt the slightest reason to pick out
Jews as being any kind of a special case.
I have never understood Zionism either for exactly the same reasons.
Calling anybody who disagrees with you an anti-Semite is a terrible tactic and it is libellous.
I really would appreciate it if somebody other than me was making this
point.
Am I in a minority of one here? Does everybody else reading this
equate any
and every criticism of Judaism and Zionism with anti-Semitism?
--
Martin Willett
http://mwillett.org
El Bleacho wrote:
> Martin Willett wrote:
>
>> I have no desire to have my words appear in a Jewish newsgroup
>
>
>
> Then why is this post of yours on soc.culture.israel? Right now, you
foaming, hate-filled anti-Semite. Why is this last post of yours on soc.culture.israel?
Because you added it. I thought I made that clear. You have libelled me on that newsgroup and I am defending myself. That is the only reason. It is your fault.
>
>
>
>> Look me up on Google and Google Groups. Please. I use my real name.
I
>> have been posting on newsgroups for over five years. There is an
>> enormous amount of evidence out there that proves your hypothesis
>> that I must be a frothing anti-Semite and obsessed with nothing
else
>> because I made one post that contained criticism of Judaism and
I am
>> not Jewish is totally wide of the mark.
>
>
> There is no way to prove you are who you say you
are. Actually there are, such as if you signed your posts with a PGP signature.
And I don't care who you say you are today, or who you say you are tomorrow.
I could care less if you log onto Usenet saying you are Bingo the Magical
Dog. All I care about is that you are anti-Semitic.
>
I sign my posts with my name, not some nickname I can discard like a soiled handkerchief. My real name. The name on my degree certificate. The name I use in my work. The name my wife uses. The name my wife uses with her Orthodox Jewish employers, looking after their Jewish children. The name my children use at school. The name you are libelling.
PGP signatures are generally used by paranoid losers who like to pretend that they are really important. I have never worked out how they are meant to work and I doubt many other people have either.
You have accused me of being anti-Semitic and obsessed with anti-Semitism on the basis of no evidence at all. I am not. I am giving you plenty of evidence to show that I am not obsessed and you are throwing it in [my] face and blustering as if I am a madman. I am perfectly sane but I actually don't enjoy being called anti-Semitic. It is really pissing me off.
My website has 577 pages on it. It is not filled with hatred of Jews. There is no hatred. There are 92 pages on the Atheism section written by me. None of those is directly concerned with Jews. A further 3 are written by an atheist Jew and there are lots of pages of correspondence between us. The politics section contains one page on Zionism and one on the relationship between the USA and Israel. Several of my pages have been republished on another website by a religious Jew. Many Jews visit my website (966 hits from Israel this month) and I do not get accused of being anti-Semitic. For one simple reason: I'm not.
>
>
>> I
>> do not discriminate, I reject all religious faiths and I criticize
all
>> religions.
>
>
> Look at your statement, you insane anti-Semite.
I do not care if you are anti
anything else; that is just added to the fact
that you are anti-Semitic. It's like you saying
that you steal cars, so you
can't be a mass murderer. So you don't like a bunch of other
religions. Fine.
It so happens that *ONE* of those things is that you hate Jews, Israel
and
Zionism. That makes you an anti-Semite. I could care less if you are also
anti-Muslim
and anti-Christian.
Anti-Semitism is caused by either a form of racism (general or specific)
or a religious
difference which causes people to have antipathy to Jews
rather than members of any
other tribe or religion.
It is not caused by atheism!
I do not hate Jews! How many times do I have to say that?
Do you hate Christians? You are not a Christian, therefore you must be
criticizing
their religion from the outside and by your reasoning that
can only be because
you are driven by hatred. That is absurd logic.
I have criticized the religion of Judaism and I have criticized Zionism.
That does not
imply that my motive is hatred of Jews. Jews criticize Judaism
and Zionism also, are they
"foaming anti-Semites"?.
>
>> The freedom to be able to do that is the most precious
>> freedom that exists. The day when all comments on religion are shouted
>> down by believers will be a very poor day for humanity.
>
>
> Magically, I am using my freedom to comment on religion. I am saying
you are an anti-Semite.
You have said you hate Jews, hate Israel, and hate
Zionism. That's enough for me. That makes you an anti-Semite.
That is not a comment on religion. It is a comment about me. Individually, personally.
I have not said I hate Jews! I have said I do not hate Jews. Repeatedly.
You have
consistently repeated your libel, and it is a libel, it is one
of the most vicious and
hateful things anybody can be accused of.
What do expect me to do? I am not in the wrong here. I am not going to
back down.
I am not going to "admit" that I am anti-Semitic when
I am absolutely not.
>
>
>
>> Calling anybody who disagrees with you an anti-Semite is a terrible
>> tactic and it is libellous.
>
>
> I do not use it as a term to insult anyone. I am declaring a fact.
You
are an anti-Semite. You hate Semites and hate Zionism.
No I do not. You cannot declare as a fact anything about me. You can
express
an opinion, on the basis of your refusal to find out anything about me
except what you make up and you read into my words here. That opinion is
libellous
as well as being incorrect.
--
Martin Willett
http://mwillett.org
The value of your opinion is clear from this hate campaign.
I am not anti-Semitic. I do not hate Jews. I am not obsessed with Jews. Being opposed to Zionism does not make a person a Jew hater. The word anti-Semitism should be reserved for those people who hate Jews and whose motives are based on hatred of Jews. To use the same phrase to label anybody who has any form of criticism of Judaism or Zionism is ridiculous, it is a gross libel on the honest critic and it debases the currency of the charge.
My criticisms of Judaism and Zionism have nothing to do with fear or hatred of Jews and are entirely consistent with my internationalist and atheist beliefs. I don't believe in homelands for any people, I don't believe in any gods, I don't support nations: so not supporting a claim to build a nation based on a superstition is entirely consistent. It really is as simple as that. To see that portrayed as having a thing about Jews is grossly insulting. But you don't just leave it at that you actually accuse me of anti-Semitism which I regard as extremely offensive.
To have the beliefs I have and NOT to criticize Zionism and Judaism would be humbug and hypocrisy. But I haven't mentioned Zionism or Judaism in any of my writings for months. You are making out that I do nothing else, probably because you have not bothered to check. As I have pointed out several times I use my real name on newsgroups, I have done so for over five years. You can check what issues I debate and see that El Bleacho's caricature is well wide of the mark.
Check out this one, in which I attack anti-Semites head-on:
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/uk.politics.parliament/msg/50f0991c79fe5a85?dmode=source
"The thread didn't start with a condemnation of Zionists it began
with
a rather tacky slur about the Jewish backgrounds of leading Tories.
I regard Zionism as a racist ideology and so I find it repugnant,
although not quite so repugnant as anti-Semitism.
http://mwillett.org/Politics/minority1.htm
If the Conservative Party is being hijacked by uncritical apologists
for Israel then that is a problem, but having a Jew as Prime Minister
is a non-issue, we settled that point back in the days of Disraeli. If
you have evidence for an uncritical approach to Israel (which I
wholeheartedly agree would not be in the interests of this country)
then let's be seeing it, but not wrapped up as a sordid spot-the-Jew
competition."
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/soc.men/msg/e07ecadf1f79f1bc?dmode=source
There is nothing I could do that would make you change your mind. You
are not open to proof or reason.
You are repeating a lie. No matter how
many times a lie is repeated it never becomes true.
--
Martin Willett
http://mwillett.org
WJ20K wrote:
> Interesting what you write (plus interesting site you run), but why
do
> you bother with the poster named 'El Bleacho' ? There are countless
> nuts on the middle eastern NGs who can do nothing better then spew
> hatefilled words. I pop up here every so often for fun. It amuses
me
> to see how silly some people can be and partake in a little verbal
> sparing. But is it really worth the effort you seem to put into it?
> Especially with religious fanatics? Just a thought :-)
> [WJ20K]
>
I was trying to defend myself against his ridiculous and hurtful charge.
You are right. It is ridiculous to be spending three hours responding to a post dashed off by a closed minded blow-hard in one minute.
I have made my point to the group. Those with open minds can see what my true position is, whether they agree with it or not it should be clear that it is nothing like the caricature of it that El Bleacho has created.
He seems to be totally unhinged, I have come across hatred and close mindedness like that before but until now only from Christian fundamentalists.
His views do not make sense. The word anti-Semitic obviously refers to Semitic people, it is a racial definition. A person remains a Semite whatever their religion, and people can practice Judaism without being Semitic. El Bleacho obviously defines Jews by religion and not by race as he says you cannot be an atheist Jew. So what is the point of the expression "anti-Semite"? He defines it as being anti-Zionist or critical of the doctrines of Judaism and yet still wants to cling on to the stinking baggage of racism to make the taunt more hurtful. So in El Bleacho's book are Jews a hated race or a hated religion? And where does he think the hatred comes from?
--
Martin Willett
http://mwillett.org
> The term anti-Semitism was coined by the German
journalist Wilhelm
> Marr in 1873, who went on to found the League for Anti-Semitism in
1879.
> (Yes, you guessed it, Herr Marr was a professional anti-Jewish agitator).
> The term was based on the racialist theories of Gobineau, Houston
> Stewart Chamberlain, and Richard Wagner, all of whom posited that
> Europeans could be divided up into different racial categories, with
> the so-called Aryans at the top, while the Jews were classified as
> being racially "Semites" and were portrayed as being Asiatics
who
> were said to be biologically and culturally incompatible with European
civilization.
> This, of course, was a lot of nonsense, and most modern scholars
> would agree that Semites constitute a linguistic category rather than
> a racial category. In other words to be a Semite, is to be a speaker
> of one of the Semitic languages (i.e. Hebrew, Arabic, Aramaic, etc.).
>
> This sort of theorizing was supposed to provide a more "scientific" basis
> for anti-Jewish hostilty than the traditional kinds which were grounded
> in age-old religious prejudices. Of course in practice, that never
stopped
> anti-Semites from exploiting old religious prejudices for fomenting
> hostility towards Jews.
>
>
>
>> A person remains a Semite whatever their religion, and people
can practice Judaism without being Semitic. El Bleacho obviously defines
Jews by religion and not by race as he says you cannot be an atheist Jew.
So what is the point of the expression "anti-Semite"? He defines
it as being anti-Zionist or critical of the doctrines of Judaism and yet
still wants to cling on to the stinking baggage of racism to make the taunt
more hurtful. So in El Bleacho's book are Jews a hated race or a hated
religion? And where does he think the hatred comes from?
>
>
> I think a large part of the problem is that English seems to lack
the words
> for properly categorizing Jews. To say that Jews are simply a
> religious group and nothing more seems incorrect since there are lots
> of people who are classified as Jews but who do not follow Judaism.
> There are lots of Jewish atheists around (Israel has certainly had
> more than one PM who were atheists or agnostics), as well as
> Jews who adhere to other religions. I think that Jack Garbuz is on
> to something when he suggests that it might be best to think of
> Jews as a tribe or a people. That's why it is not so easy for non-Jews
to
> become Jews. To become a Jew, requires a bit more than
> simply switching religions, it requires that one be accepted into
> the tribe. Under halakha (Jewish law), one is considered to be
> a Jew, either if one's mother is halakhically Jewish (thereby
> making this definition recursive), or if one has undergone
> a bona fide conversion to Judaism.
>
Thanks. Semitic refers to the descendants of Shem, eldest son of Noah. That is of course mythology and of no practical value. Semitic languages is the name given to various related languages, they probably originated in Northern Africa and migrated East and North into the Levant. In practical terms today Semitic refers to Jews. And the label anti-Semitism was invented to give bogus scientific credibility to a pre-existing hatred of Jews which was probably an amalgam of fear and hatred of the different, religiously inspired and propagated suspicion and hatred and the distrust that builds up towards any minority which refuses to integrate and claims special status. You can't get much more special than declaring that you are God's only chosen people.
Any group which refuses to integrate and considers itself special is going to cause some resentment in the communities it fails to integrate with. The more special they claim to be the more this tends to be treated as intolerable arrogance and the more lurid stories start to spread about the group that fails to integrate. Whether resentment turns into open hatred or pogrom probably depends on general levels of hardship, it's much easier to live and let live when the living is easy. In America and Britain Jews have integrated fairly well into the wider society and so there is little spontaneous "anti-Semitism", and hardly any since the depression years of the thirties were put into history. What little anti-Semitism exists in Britain and America is studied and deliberate, often inspired by contrarian sentiments. People who find themselves being characterized as right wing jerks get to enjoy the attention and see anti-Semitism as a very cheap and easy way to gain notoriety. Put yourself in Jimmy The Skinhead's boots, last year three children from his school got their names in the newspaper, one for getting the highest marks in the county, one for getting a place at ballet school and the other for being expelled from school for painting a swastika on a wall. How to make a name for himself ... hmmm, it's no contest, is it? Being bad is so much easier than being notably good at anything worthwhile and pretending to be an anti-Semitic jerk doesn't take any special talents at all.
Don't confuse understanding with condoning. A failure to understand, especially a refusal to understand, helps nobody. Condemning hatred without knowing where the hatred comes from is futile. Condemning those analysing the hatred as if they are guilty of the hatred is almost as pathetic as the story of the paediatrician being beaten up because somebody said she was a "paedo" (paedophile).
http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_49785.html
--
Martin Willett
http://mwillett.org
El Bleacho wrote:
> Martin Willett wrote:
>
>> Thanks.
>
>
> Thanking folks won't change the fact that you are an anti-Semite.
And I see that you cannot help but keep posting your shit to soc.culture.israel;
you foaming KKK lunatic. What part of "get the fuck out of our group,
you anti-Semitic asshole" don't you understand.
>
Considering that soc.culture.israel was added to this thread by you, presumably in the hope of getting some support for your objectionable attitude that was not forthcoming you really have no leg to stand on.
No matter how much you throw your toys out of the pram you are not convincing anybody. I don't hate Jews and no matter how hatefully you behave towards me or my family that isn't going to change.
You have no power over me.
I hope the lifestyle comes together,
--
Martin Willett
http://mwillett.org
El Bleacho wrote:
> Martin Willett wrote:
>
>> Considering that soc.culture.israel was added to this thread by
you,
>> presumably in the hope of getting some support for your objectionable
>> attitude that was not forthcoming you really have no leg to stand
on.
>
>
> No, you anti-Semitic liar. You are the one with no leg to stand on,
begging for support. You begged every one of your groups to support you.
I have copies of the posts where you asked others in the group to back
you up on your assertion that speaking against Zionism and Israel was not
being anti-Semitic. Nobody backed you up.
>
> You are a died in the wool, frothing anti-Semite.
>
The phrase is *dyed* in the wool.
http://www.freesearch.co.uk/dictionary/dyed-in-the-wool
http://www.answers.com/dyed-in-the-wool&r=67
I forgot to say before but of the three women I have had sex with one was half-Jewish (the wrong half in case you're wondering).
Begged every one of my groups? Bollocks. This thread is in
alt.religion.christian.baptist
alt.religion.christian.biblestudy
alt.religion.christianity
alt.talk.creationism
and the one you added
soc.culture.israel
I am not a creationist. I'm not Israeli, I'm English. I'm not a Baptist, Christian or even religious, I'm a born again atheist, recently celebrating thirty years of thinking for myself.
These are not my groups, I don't expect to get much support here, I'm just passing through.
As I mentioned before, I opened this thread up out of mild curiosity because I am an atheist. I'm only still here because you are libelling me so ineptly that it is actually amusing.
--
Martin Willett
http://mwillett.org
El Bleacho wrote:
> Martin Willett wrote:
>>The phrase is *dyed* in the wool.
> BWHAHAHAHA. A Spelling flame. Oh, this day gets better as it goes
on.
> What's next?
Do you take pride in your ignorance? I suppose it does make sense, you
should stick with what you're best at.
>>I forgot to say before but of the three women I have had sex with
one
>>was half-Jewish (the wrong half in case you're wondering).
> Let's not discuss your sex life. It has nothing to do with your hatred
of
> Israel and Zionism. That is why you are an anti-Semite.
Anti-Semitism means hating Jews, the people. It has nothing to do with
having criticisms of their causes, beliefs or aspirations, it means
hating the people. I don't. It is as simple as that.
El Bleacho's mindless doctrine is that there is only one possible reason
to be against Zionism and that is because you are an anti-Semite. And if
you deny it you are a lying anti-Semite and if you state it in a public
forum you are a frothing anti-Semite. And if you are married your wife
is a skinhead.
The fact that many Jews are not Zionists is something he simply ignores.
The fact that I don't hate Jews to the point of my wife wife working for
a Jewish family, having Jewish friends and me shagging a young woman of
Jewish descent is apparently completely irrelevant. Keeper of the Jewish
Conscience El Bleacho has declared this to be a fact and incontestable.
He knows me better than I know myself and he is doing the world a favour
by pointing this out.
>>I am not a creationist. I'm not Israeli, I'm English. I'm not
a
>>Baptist, Christian or even religious, I'm a born again atheist,
>>recently celebrating thirty years of thinking for myself.
> You are not thinking for yourself. You are certainly not the world's
first
> athiest. You are parrotting their beliefs (or lack thereof).
http://mwillett.org/athiest.htm
I admit it, I'm not an Orthodox Atheist. I haven't attended any
services, I haven't read half the holy books.
What a ridiculous job you are making of this you illiterate buffoon.
I am an atheist. There's only one qualification to be an atheist: you
must not believe in gods. I have been running an atheist website for
over five years. I also run an atheist forum. There are dozens of people
out there who only know one atheist: me. I don't need lessons in
atheism, I give them, and people thank me for them.
>>As I mentioned before, I opened this thread up out of mild curiosity
>>because I am an atheist. I'm only still here because you are libelling
>>me so ineptly that it is actually amusing.
> I am not libeling you, you paranoid loon. I am pointing out the fact
that
> you are an anti-Semite.
The fact is that anti-Semites hate Jews. If you don't hate Jews you are
not an anti-Semite. It's really that simple.
Wouldn't it make more sense for a post-colonial era Englishman who hated
Jews to be fully in favour of Zionism? Think it through. If I hated Jews
like you make out surely the most satisfactory solution would be to
declare England a homeland for the English and Israel a homeland for the
Jews and to expell Jews from England.
But I don't say that. I am happy to encourage Jewish immigration into
Britain, I am happy to encourage any group into Britain except Muslims
because we have enough already. (Enough already? Did I just say that? Oy
Vey!)
"With regard to anti-Semitism, the distinguished Israeli statesman
Abba
Eban pointed out the main task of Israeli propaganda (they would call it
exclamation, what's called 'propaganda' when others do it) is to make it
clear to the world there's no difference between anti-Semitism and
anti-Zionism. By anti-Zionism he meant criticisms of the current
policies of the State of Israel. So there's no difference between
criticism of policies of the State of Israel and anti-Semitism, because
if he can establish 'that' then he can undercut all criticism by
invoking the Nazis and that will silence people. We should bear it in
mind when there's talk in the US about anti-Semitism." - Noam Chomsky
You're not establishing it. Not even coming close.
Repeating a lie does not make a truth.
"The bitter irony of fate decreed that the same biological and racist
argument extended by the Nazis, and which inspired the inflammatory laws
of Nuremberg, serve as the basis for the official definition of
Jewishness in the bosom of the state of Israel" - Haim Cohen
(former judge of the Supreme Court of Israel)
I don't hate Jews. Have I said?
--
Martin Willett
http://mwillett.org
cactus wrote:
> Martin Willett wrote:
> Did you read my responses to your comments? Just curious. Different perspective on what you have said while here.
I started to respond to one but I ran out of time. I made responding to the frothing one my priority. I thought I had posted a reply to that effect but it seems I was mistaken.
I am glad to see that you do draw a distinction between criticizing and hating. The two people in the entire world that I criticize most often are my children, equating criticism and hatred is absurd.
El Bleacho is obviously too intellectually challenged to grasp the distinction between criticism and hatred or between explaining and condoning.
Even when (very briefly) at the age of 15 I was attracted to extreme right wing politics I never had the slightest desire or inclination toward anti-Semitism, I have always found anti-Semitism absurd, pathetic, and beneath my dignity in addition to the normal disgust response to any form of hatred one does not share. I find the suggestion that I am anti-Semitic deeply offensive. But now I see that El Bleacho is an intellectually challenged troll there's more pity in me than anger.
I will be leaving today so I can't be getting in to any long discussions I'm afraid so here are a few comments on your unanswerd posts:
> an atheist would presumably have similar criticisms for all religions, > pretty much impartially.
Yes. I criticise all religions from time to time, usually in proportion to my knowledge and understanding of them. I criticize Christianity the most because I am most familiar with it. Unlike many atheists I do not see myself as somebody who does not believe in God, I do not believe in gods. Any gods. I do not have any superstitious beliefs of any kind. I do not ally myself with Pagans or Wiccans or any other gullible idiots. I do not cut Eastern mysticism any more slack than I cut for serpent handlers from Arkansas. My attitude to all religions is probably quite similar to the typical Kansas school teachers' attitude to belief in the god Neptune: I can understand ancient people believing this myth because they didn't know any better but surely we know better now?
> Second, feel free to criticize Judaism on a religious basis, but
> Zionism is a political movement: criticizing that might be better
> done politically.
Divorcing God from Zion is rather difficult to do. If the Jews had just been a normal tribe and they had been dispersed they would have been assimilated into the lands they moved to within a century or so and they would merit no more ink in history books than dozens of other tribes that interacted with the Roman Empire. The word "Hebrews" might have been written on a slant somewhere in the general vicinity of Jerusalem with a few arrows pointing outward, end of story. Europeans with Hebrew ancestors would no more look to Jerusalem than red haired Yorkshiremen look to Scandinavia. By the time Europeans cottoned on to the concept of surnames there wouldn't have been any Jewish identity, just a few Hebrew sounding words in dozens of European languages and possibly a few places where the script ran right to left. It is the religion at the heart of Jewish culture which created "the Jewish problem" by preventing assimilation, and the scriptural basis of the religion that ensured it survived for so long.
I agree with you, racism is not the right word, I was wrong, tribalism is better. But tribes such as Hutu and Tutsi can hate as much as any people of a different race. There's no moral superiority in claiming your sense of superiority over outsiders is based on your tribe rather than your race. Nor for that matter is there any difference in claiming your sense of superiority is based on your nation. The sin is the unjustified sense of superiority, the great achievement of being born to the parents who belong in the right group, not the nature of the cleavage. There's as much to scorn in the Kansas beer gut thumper who claims he's best because he's 'merican like Einstein, Bill Gates and Carl Lewis than the klansman who thinks he's smart cos he been done and got hisself born white. Responding to prejudice by emphasizing pride is like fighting a hot oil fire by pouring on cold water, it is a perfectly understandable reaction but it is a very unwise move.
If the Roman Empire had not dispersed the Jews there would not have been the same history of hate and persecution. The tribalism of the Jews was no different to that of most tribes. There would have been no pogroms or holocaust without the diaspora. But there could well still have been Crusades of some kind and religiously inspired wars. Without the diaspora Zionism would be meaningless. Without (the persistent nature of) Judaism the diaspora would have been a footnote in history, only of any interest to academics.
--
Martin Willett
http://mwillett.org
El Bleacho wrote:
> Martin Willett wrote:
>
>> Anti-Semitism means hating Jews, the people. It has nothing to
do with
>> having criticisms of their causes, beliefs or aspirations, it
means
>> hating the people. I don't. It is as simple as that.
>
>
> You are a fucking idiot; you white hooded, frothing anti-Semite.
>
>
Repeating a lie does not make a truth.
>
>> The fact that many Jews are not Zionists is something he simply
>> ignores.
>
>
> All Jews are Zionists, you horse's ass. Any person of Jewish faith believes
in Tanakh, which guarantees Zion as a birthright. You moronic anti-Semite.
All religious Jews might have some belief in Zion and the promise of land from "G-d" but that is not the same as supporting the creation of a nationalist Zionist state.
http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/
"Although there are those who refuse to accept the teachings of our Rabbis and will continue to support the Zionist state, there are also many who are totally unaware of the history of Zionism and its contradiction to the beliefs of Torah-True Jews."
"True Torah Jews is a non-profit organization formed by a group of religious Orthodox Jews dedicated to informing the world and the American public and politicians in particular, that the idealogy of Zionism is in total opposition to the teachings of traditional Judaism."
>
>
>> The fact that I don't hate Jews to the point of my wife wife working
>> for a Jewish family, having Jewish friends and me shagging a young
>> woman of Jewish descent is apparently completely irrelevant.
>
>
> Keep spewing, frothing KKKook.
>
You are really damaging your cause now with your refusal to demonstrate any level of thought. Please keep it up. Perhaps you should type in a fake German accent, give me an SS rank and think up some hilarious charge against my mother.
>> But I don't say that. I am happy to encourage Jewish immigration
into
>> Britain, I am happy to encourage any group into Britain except Muslims
>> because we have enough already. (Enough already? Did I just say
that?
>> Oy Vey!)
>
>
> More anti-Semitic statements and anti-Muslim statements noted, KKKook.
>
>
>> I don't hate Jews. Have I said?
>
>
> Yep. You said. Along with how you want to gas all the Zionists and inhabitants
of Israel. Idiotic KKKook.
I have not said anything about gassing Jews. Why would I want to gas Jews? I don't have a problem with Jews. It seems you are the one with the problem, you are trying to sell a lie and nobody is buying. All criticism of Judaism and Zionism does not come from hatred. You can't get me to hate what I do not hate, no matter how hatefully you act.
The Ku Klux Klan is a white supremacist organization full of hateful Christians, they are the kind of arseholes I spent most of my time on-line fighting. I have nothing in common with them. You know this is true and still you try to persist in spreading this ridiculous notion that if anybody doesn't support everything a Jewish person wants to do religiously and politically it is because they hate all Jews and want to see them all murdered, probably in gas chambers. You know you are too smart to actually believe it honestly, so why are you using faith to hold onto such a stupid idea?
--
Martin Willett
http://mwillett.org
Pastor Dave wrote:
> On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 15:15:58 GMT, "El Bleacho"
> <ElBleacho@Clorox.gov> spake thusly:
>
>
>> Martin Willett wrote:
>>
>>> http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/
>>
>> Wow - so now you have lowered yourself to posting websites of
KKK supporters and their lies? What else do you do for an encore, you anti-Semitic
KKKook? Will you post links to al-Jizeera and al-Qaida sites too, you fucking
Muslim loon?
>
>
> This is very telling of you as a person.
>
The really weird thing is that if you look at some of his other posts you can see he isn't stupid, he is capable of thoughtful analysis.
Now I'm a Muslim loon? Whereas yesterday I was anti-Muslim too. Is somebody
breaking into his computer and posting this shit to discredit El Bleacho?
If so *it's working*.
--
Martin Willett
http://mwillett.org
cactus wrote:
> El Bleacho wrote:
>
>> cactus wrote:
>>
>>> Too bad you indulged in a flame war. We might have spread
more light
>>> than heat.
>>
>>
>>
>> When you talk to anti-Semites; it usually ends up in flames. It
seems to be the nature of the Usenet beast.
>>
> That is up to us. In general I have found that
bluntly refuting ideas rather than flaming works better. In my observation,
neonazis don't want to flame, they want to get their hateful ideas out.
If they are called on their assertions, they often go elsewhere because
their hateful lies are refuted.
>
> More frequent here are types like Rob or jw, who couch hateful language
in terms of Christian theology. At first I thought he was a genuine jew-hater,
but have come to realize that his perverted theology provides him with
a set of ready-made lies. Again, flaming doesn't do any good. All one can
hope for is to counter his hateful lies with the truth.
>
> Far more common than either are the Martin Willets, who simply grew
up in a poisoned atmosphere. They have honest, thoughtful views about Israel,
often obtained on their own. It is important to discuss their viewpoints
rationally and provide other views that they can respond to. It's up to
us to spread the light at that point, and reflexive flaming in counterproductive.
I did not grow up in a poisoned atmosphere! Stop projecting! Anti-Semitism was something I never encountered. I knew hardly any Jewish people and I knew nobody who was anti-Semitic for that very reason. Anti-Semitism was something I learned about in history and from television, it was as far removed from my life as tin baths and rickets: it was a horror from an earlier generation. I hated anti-Semitism long before I ever encountered it.
The first direct experience of anti-Semitism I had was in America, and I was the victim. I had gone to America to volunteer in the 1984 election campaign. I helped out in various ways. One of the tasks I was given was to pull out names from a address file for targeting on the basis of surnames. I was told how to spot Hispanic, Polish and Jewish surnames for targeted campaigning.
I was meeting significant numbers of Jewish people for the first time in my life and they were cool people. The campaign team I was working with was helped a lot by the law firm of Schatz & Schatz, Ribicoff & Kotkin, based in Hartford, Connecticut. Even I knew that there was a possibility that some of those people might have been Jewish. I got to meet lots of people there who were Jewish and my experiences were all positive.
One of the other campaign workers was a Jewish student of about my age. He didn't have an obviously Jewish surname. One day I accidentally called him by the wrong surname, Greenberg, he looked at me as if I had farted in his beer. He cut me dead from that moment on. Perhaps there was a subconscious thing going on in my mind that said this lad looks like a Jew, he should have a Jewish surname. Quite possible. He was obviously expecting to be hated for being Jewish and so was looking for evidence of it everywhere. I was absolutely mortified by this. How could somebody think *that* of me?
That was the only bad experience of the whole trip. The best part of the experience was going on a road trip to Springfield Massachusetts. We were going to help out this guy who apparently would be president one day: John Kerry.
I do not hate and have never hated Jews as a group and the only two Jews I have had bad experiences with have been American Jews who have brought that situation on themselves by expecting anti-Semitism from me and accusing me of a hatred I am not only not guilty of but not capable of.
Please be aware that the world is not full of anti-Semites, or at the very least that there is a lot less hatred of Jews about than you might expect from your own direct experience. Learn to give people the benefit of the doubt, you'll be much happier for it.
--
Martin Willett
http://mwillett.org