Right now America is considered a free country and possibly the greatest country on Earth. Ever count how many laws are on the books?

If all of mankind Kept God's laws.. only 10 simple rules written in stone. Mankind would be truly free. Six out of the Ten laws established by God are already in Man's laws in their many forms and you are essentially required to keep them. Problem with men who do not love God is that you can make a million more laws to go with the million you already have and it will not make a difference since they serve only themself and keep no law.

Men of God don't need man's Many laws since they are already addressed in the Holy 10 Commands established by God.

So tell me with the many laws you either keep or break in America, Are you truly free? I am.

Let’s start by taking a look at all the prophecies concerning the birth of the Christ since Christ said he fulfilled "ALL" in the law and the prophets concerning him.

<huge spammy multicoloured email prattling on about prophesies snipped unread>

It is Sad that you would make a decision on only half the information. You say there is no God but your whole life you have only been shown bits and peices of half truth. When Solid proof comes your way you have no patience for it. Why are you on a debate site if your not going to cover the real material and then debate?

Remember good old benny. Passover of 2009 at the full moon..... A day is coming that all men will know there is a God. Unfortunately the majority will go after the one who looses. By not choosing to follow God you have already lost because Satan wins you by defult.

Take care and God Bless

Todd

The views I present are the debate to your views. You invite debate by stating God is not real. The information sent to you proves otherwise and clears the confusion within the multi denominations which claim to serve Christ.

I am more like you than you know. Up to a year and a half ago, I too did not belive in God. After conducting the study presented to you, I have no choice but to say he is real and the evidence is in the study. I am a mechanical/logical thinker relying on Math and time to define my understanding of the world around me. All the same problems you see with current christianity today i see as well. The stories told by the Christian perception just do not add up to reality. This is why i stepped outside the traditional christian box to see if there was anything to the God concept through prophecy. It is claimed by Christ that prophecy is the witness given to him from the Father God.

You will notice by the study that I step outside of the bible box to take a look at history vs prophecy to see if there is any credibility to the fulfillment of the prophecies and if any first or second century written testimonies can confirm what I have found. Turns out there is a great deal of information supporting what is presented in the study. Traditional christians reject the information being found due to traditional beliefs that they can never be wrong in their understanding or in their belief that the bible is perfect. You will see that I do not share this view.

It's totally up to you if you take the time to review the information. I can assure you that it's an outlook of perception you will not get from a traditional Christian. I would actually value a credible feedback/debate from you, if you could offer the time to review in more detail what is presented.

Let the debate begin

Todd M. Vetter

A powerful comment actually

Do you have the courage to read this in full?

John 7:42

Has not the Scripture said that the Christ comes from the seed of David and from the town of Bethlehem, where David was?”

Acts 2:29-30

29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulcher is with us unto this day.

30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

Romans 1:3

concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

http://reluctant-messenger.com/essene/gospel_1.htm

AND in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God, unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth, to a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.2. Now Joseph was a just and rational Mind, and he was skilled in all manner of work in wood and in stone. And Mary was a tender and discerning Soul, and she wrought veils for the temple. And they were both pure before God; and of them both was Jesu-Maria who is called the Christ. 3. And the angel came in unto her and said, Hail, Mary, thou that art highly favored, for the Mother of God is with thee: blessed art thou among women and blessed be the fruit of thy womb. 4. And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be. And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary, for thou hast found favor with God and, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb and bring forth a child, and He shall be great and shalt be called a Son of the Highest. 5. And the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: and he shall reign over the house of Jacob forever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. 6. Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? And the angel answered and said unto her The Holy Spirit shall come upon Joseph thy Spouse, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee, O Mary, therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Christ, the Child of God, and his Name on earth shalt be called Jesu-Maria, for he shall save the people from their sins, whosoever shall repent and obey his Law. 7. Therefore ye shall eat no flesh, nor drink strong drink, for the child shall be consecrated unto God from its mother's womb, and neither flesh nor strong drink shall he take, nor shall razor touch his head.

8. And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren. For with God no thing shall be impossible. And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her. 9. And in the same day the angel Gabriel appeared unto Joseph in a dream and said unto him, Hail, Joseph, thou that art highly favored, for the Fatherhood of God is with thee. Blessed art thou among men and blessed be the fruit of thy loins. 10. And as Joseph thought upon these words he was troubled, and the angel of the Lord said unto him, Fear not, Joseph, thou Son of David, for thou hast found favor with God, and behold thou shalt beget a child, and thou shalt call his name Jesu-Maria for he shall save his people from their sins. 11. Now all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was written in the prophets saying, Behold a Maiden shall conceive and be with child and shall bring forth a son, and shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God Within Us. 12. Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel had bidden him, and went in unto Mary, his espoused bride, and she conceived in her womb the Holy One.

1 John 4:2

By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God,

1 John 4:3

and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.

2 John 1:7 ( Beware of Antichrist Deceivers ] For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

Isaiah 7:14 KJV

Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel.

The original Hebrew text of Isaiah 7:14 reads as follows (translated):

"Therefore the Lord Himself shall give you a sign: behold, the young woman [ha-almah] shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanu-el".

For a witness that no man can argue against regarding the validity of the content of the conception testimony you have just read see page 24 in the first PDF at the following link.

Todd M. Vetter

http://www.thedeathandresurection.com

I would not mistake my ignorance as a man for the reality of what was just sent to you.

one of these is from your bible and one is not. If Matt 4:4 is important then we all have a job to do. that is to figure out which of these words Jesus really spoke

John 20:21-23

21 So Jesus said to them again, “Peace to you! As the Father has sent Me, I also send you.” 22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

Lection LXXXVII

6. Then saith Jesus unto them again, Peace be unto you, as Abba Amma hath sent me, even so send I you. And when he had said this he breathed on them and said unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost; preach the Gospel, and announce ye unto all nations; the resurrection of the Son of Man.

7. Teach ye the holy law of love which I have delivered unto you. And whosoever forsake their sins, they are remitted unto them, and whosoever continue in their sins they are retained unto them.

8. Baptize them who believe and repent, bless and anoint them, and offer ye the pure Oblation of the fruits of the earth, which I have appointed unto you for a Memorial of me.

If we are baring false witness against christ even in our ignorance, This is why the Holy spirit is missing from Christianity and has been missing for some time. Spiritual famine is covered in Bible prophecy.. most just believe it ended when protastants got the bible back from Rome.. all they really got was Roman doctrine which was half the truth..

God bless my judgemental friend.

Todd M. Vetter

http://www.thedeathandresurection.com

Illustrate fulfilment of Exodus 12... Why does the bible misrepresent this fulfillment?

Why does the G-12 text give clarity for the resurrection where the 4 gospels can't seem to get their story straight?

Have you ever read G-12? or did you fall prey to what your itchy ears wanted to hear by following the croud instead of testing all things and keeping that which is good?

Todd M. Vetter

http://www.thedeathandresurection.com

The failed prophecy came from building on the bible only. The bible is just a book of Half truth leading men to confusion. It's not God (God is the word) the bible just a history book containing some of the words spoken by God and also containing what Satan has sown in the night. Hence my confusion for believing I could predict the future with out God speaking directly to me. I use to believe this was done through the book.. Now I know it's done through the spirit. That spirit has to be in each of us...And it's missing from each of us due to baring false witness against Christ and what he accomplished. We cannot claim to know him if we know nothing of what he accomplished and the bible misrepresents it as well. The prediciton came from the bible in correlation with history as it unfolds.. it was in Error due to building on half the truth. The bible is Half the truth.

The first PDF at the posted link below illustrates very clearly why that is.. all the prophecies in the bible to support what is displayed are present as well. If you prejudge G-12 with out reading it, you will never see the error in the 4 half truth gospels in your bible which give you the perception of a profitable truth by combining the 4, but they still leave you and the rest of the Christian world confused. Hence why denominational division exists today.

To predict future events and call it truth is Crap unless God speaks directly too you and gives you what to say in your ear... I know that now due to testimony in G-12 which is missing from the bible. Instead of judging my flaws. carefully review the first PDF and answer me just one Question. Why does the bible misrepresent the fulfillment of Exodus 12 which leads to a further misrepresentiation of the sign of Jonah? See PDF one... The information could not be displayed more objectively or clearly... a 3rd grader could understand it.

Todd M. Vetter

http://www.thedeathandresurection.com

In your reply you state that the G-12 text is a 19th century forgery. Did the man who translated G-12 also write the gospel of Thomas which was validated to have been written in the first century and was not discovered until 1945/ 20th century?

The reason I ask is this. Gospel of Thomas and G-12 are the only two historical works which contain this testimony from Christ. If he was a 19th century charlatain as was your words, How do you explain that time and history confirm the content to be ancient in origen?

Gospel of Thomas

(28) Jesus said: I stood in the midst of the world, and I appeared to them in flesh. I found them all drunk, I found none among them thirsting; and my soul was afflicted for the sons of men, for they are blind in their heart and they do not see. For empty came they into the world, seeking also to depart empty from the world. But now they are drunk. When they have thrown off their wine, then will they repent.

Lection LXXXVIII verse 5 Gospel of holy 12

http://reluctant-messenger.com/essene/gospel_intro.htm

5. And Jesus said, I stood in the midst of the world, and in the flesh was I seen and heard, and I found all men glutted with their own pleasures, and drunk with their own follies, and none found I hungry or athirst for the wisdom which is of God. My soul grieveth over the sons and daughters of men because they are blind in their heart, and in their soul are they deaf and hear not my voice.

Todd M. Vetter

http://www.thedeathandresurection.com

The study that I sent to you proves this with out a shadow of a doubt if you would take the time to view it instead of debating with me. Debate facts not speculations. Why does the bible misrepresent the fulfilment of Exodus 12? Why was Jesus not chosen by the people on the 10th day of the first month per the exodus 12 prophecy? Why does Gospel of Holy 12 illustrate that Christ did fulfill this prophecy?

God Bless

Todd M. Vetter

http://www.thedeathandresurection.com

You are a critic on a gospel you have never read in full or your statements would not reflect such ignorance regarding the text.. You have fallen for that which your itchy ears wanted to hear and have chosen your God (a book) and defend the book with great speculations...Hope the book speaks for you on judgment day.. My God Is living and consistent... yours is a collection of papers that can't get the story straight because so much was taken out.

You believe G-12 only illustrates one prophecy fulfillment more than the bible? there are at least 20+ prophecies contained in G-12 text that history confirms to be fulfilled that the bible is lacking.. The sign of Jonah is just one of those. The forgery is passing off 4 half truth gospels as a full truth.. causing men to make a book their God and never giving mankind the full wisdom needed to resist sin and receive the baptism of Spirit. hence the spiritual famine that Christ prophesied would come after he departed.

The bible with traditions of men teaches that Christ came to forgive our sins, He came to give us the knowlege to have our sins forgen us. Find one spot in the gospel where Christ forgave sins or did he say your sins are forgiven you due to a repentant heart?

Did you know that what is recorded in the first book of Matthew is from the spirit of anti-Christ? You would have to read the conception testimony in G-12 to even see why i would make this statement.

G-12 illustrates Christ coming according to the Flesh fulfilling 3 prophecies for this event, The Matthew testimony in Chapt. one fulfills only one prophecy which had to be twisted by Rome to fit the text they added to the book of Matthew .

The bible does not illustrate the fulfillment of Psalms 2:7 in the gospels... it talks about it in the later books.. G-12 illustrates this prophecy fulfilled where the bible does not... I can list 20+ Prophecies but don't have the time to re-write the solid re-search that has already been sent to you at the below link which illustrates all of what I am saying ... in case you lost it see first PDF at the following link or the attachment

http://www.thedeathandresurection.com

The book assembled by the men of Rome which prophecy said smash and destroy all things, Your faith is in the men of your forefathers. Until you hear God's voice in the book and know the words to be true.. you will never see what Satan has sown in the night in the same field. You will continue to eat from the tree of Good and evil which only leads to one place, confusion and death. God Bless and good luck. Speculation has been removed from the first document at the link. let me know if any testimony is misrepresented... Remember if they speak not according to the Law and testimony there is no light in them. You probably believe the Law and testimony to be the bible as a whole, they are the words professed from the mouth of God which are consistent.. let me know if the Laws of Moses and the testimony of Jesus are misrepresented by the attachment. In color font below is an illustration of how the bible misrepresents the Laws and testimony, thus misrepresenting Christ and causing him to loose credibility, just to give you an example

If you can find any Error in this study up to page 36... ask if the error is your traditional perception which may fall under deception. Everything listed is from Bible scripture, history, or gospel testimony found in the world where God and Satan have both sown their Seed.. prophecy is God's witness of his son...

Why does the bible portray that Christ was not God's son? Then try to portray that he was His son?

The Three verses of Testimony below add to a great deal of speculation in testimony and cause what could be the greatest doubt as to whether Christ was the Passover Lamb or not If the Lamb was to be killed on the 14th day and the feast of unleavened bread was not until evening start of the 15th of Nissan/Abib. These three verses of testimony not written by a Jew destroy Christ’s credibility of being the Passover Lamb. Was the Gospel testimony always worded this way? G-12 speaks very differently and in a way that restores Christ's credibility.

Luke 22: 7-9

7 Then came the Day of Unleavened Bread, when the Passover must be killed. 8 And He sent Peter and John, saying, “Go and prepare the Passover for us, that we may eat.” 9 So they said to Him, “Where do You want us to prepare?”

Mark 14:12

12 Now on the first day of Unleavened Bread, when they killed the Passover lamb, His disciples said to Him, “Where do You want us to go and prepare, that You may eat the Passover?”

Matthew 16: 17-18

17 Now on the first day of the Feast of the Unleavened Bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying to Him, “Where do You want us to prepare for You to eat the Passover?” 18 And He said, “Go into the city to a certain man, and say to him, ‘The Teacher says, “My time is at hand; I will keep the Passover at your house with My disciples.”’”

Does G-12 text contain the testimony that clears the confusion on this issue? See below and decide for yourself. Are the three verses above bad seed sown in the night by Christ’s enemy to cause him to loose credibility? You decide!

Lection LXXI :10

10. And Jesus seeing the Passover night was at hand, sent two of his disciples, that they should prepare the upper room where he desired to eat with his twelve, and buy such things as were needful for the feast which he purposed thereafter.

This appears to be the testimony of a Jewish person who knew the Laws of Moses. What follows below is extremely important to determine which is really what Christ spoke or not since this is the charge of Christ to the Apostles. Are we fulfilling the mission he spoke to us?

John 20:21-23

21 So Jesus said to them again, “Peace to you! As the Father has sent Me, I also send you.” 22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

Lection LXXXVII

6. Then saith Jesus unto them again, Peace be unto you, as Abba Amma hath sent me, even so send I you. And when he had said this he breathed on them and said unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost; preach the Gospel, and announce ye unto all nations; the resurrection of the Son of Man.

7. Teach ye the holy law of love which I have delivered unto you. And whosoever forsake their sins, they are remitted unto them, and whosoever continue in their sins they are retained unto them.

8. Baptize them who believe and repent, bless and anoint them, and offer ye the pure Oblation of the fruits of the earth, which I have appointed unto you for a Memorial of me.

Until Mankind reads G-12 (gospel of holy 12) in full they will never understand the importance of re-discovering what Rome threw away in the 3rd and 4th century at the councils. They will never understand the false perception of salvation (Spiritual Famine) and why God would have allowed it for much of the last 1900 years.

Todd M. Vetter

http://www.thedeathandresurection.com