"Women with no fat are not attractive, well not to me anyway. Women with no fat only appeal to photographers and gay men looking for a female that is not really too female, a tall thin boy to model their clothes or whatever else they are selling. "

I'm not gay, and I'm not a photographer, so explain why I find thinner women more attractive. The fact that women over a certain fat percentage cannot become pregnant might help in solidifying a theory.

Chris

You're young and single. That is the explanation. From an evolutionary perspective the ideal partner for any single man of any age is a fourteen to twenty year old virgin with symmetrical features that matches the generally perceived notions of beauty in your society. That holds for all societies, all ages of men. You are looking for a wife who could bear you multitudes of attractive children. Or at least that is what the search criteria you are using suggests.

For chimpanzees an ideal female is available and obviously fertile, chimpanzees are not looking for a wife, just something fertile of the right species to impregnate. For a married man in a stable relationship it makes sense for me to be fixated on that image too. I am not in the market for a wife, just for sex, at least my body is, my brain though knows it had better keep this all theoretical, as it likes being attached to all parts of its body.

To answer your point about fertility fat women are not generally infertile, only if they have complications. Obesity does not generally cause fertility problems. (My children prove that). In contrast too thin women often stop menstruating. I would doubt that Geri* has bought any tampons this year, or most Olympic competitors either. Extreme exercise and starvation directly reduce fertility.

I am not saying that I find only fat women attractive, or even more attractive, just that I find them attractive. I find Page 3 girls very attractive, natural young girls that are not over-developed with muscles or artificial additives of any kind. But I don't say that only such girls are attractive, big distinction.

Martin

Liked the article. I have a very similar take on the issue to you.

Here's a couple of thoughts that might interest you. These are based on stereotypes not facts.

Why do we have women's food and men's food?

I work for a building society in Yorkshire, the canteen offers the usual 'chips and..' a veggie option, another hot meal and a salad bar. There's seems to be an unwritten rule that only men have pie and chips and only women have salad. The salad is always crap, no dressing, limp and tasteless.

Will Americans stop breeding?

The way America portrays itself and the way it is are becoming so different that they will die out. From the images in TV and movies you would believe that Americans are all fantastically attractive in a fairly uniform way, all men have six pack stomachs all women are smaller than size 12, all clever women have small pert breasts, all sexually active women have large hemi-spherical breasts.

In reality the majority of Americans are obese.

The variance presented to Americans will leave them unable to have an sexual desire towards anyone who may reciprocate, they will stop breeding, the last generation will live alone and use the internet one handed.

Hiya Martin

I found Meme Machine by typing 'gene theories simplified' in the MSN search engine. I entered the site and followed the instructions to get a general feel for what was going on. Still here three hours later! This is the most thought-provoking, interesting site I think I've EVER visited.

Anyway, I got sidetracked, looking for Shakespeare in the A-Z (I hate the written version of his work and can't see what all the fuss is about and I was hoping someone who'd thought about it would give me a few pointers) and came across your piece on Big Women. I run an msn community for Big People (not for dating, just talking toot and the like) and I'd just like to say I really, really enjoyed your writing and the logic you applied to support your tastes. Keep up the good work. I've now added your site to my favourites and will make many, many return journeys.

Thank you

Angie (a.k.a. Big Bird)

"Gene theories simplified" Well, well. I have heard the theory that the universe is not only weirder than we imagine but if we ever got close to understanding it then it would be instantly replaced by something even weirder. (As has already happened several times, which is why it is so weird). That is probably bullshit, but that certainly seems to be the case with search engines. I have never begun to work out a theory of how they work. I try to check up my site by inputting keywords and seeing if it comes up, it often doesn't and yet it turns up to gene theories simplified.

Shakespeare eh? I never got into literature. I am not a philistine, I just don't particularly care for it and I don't feel guilty about it either. I don't see why people should be forced into studying stuff that does not appeal to them. Andi, who writes to me from the University of Vienna, says he was allowed to study The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy in English literature, now that I can relate to. If you want to tell your friends about the site I will not stand in your way.

Hiya Martin

and thanks for your reply. It's jolly generous of you not to stand in the way of me spreading the news about your site. I've emailed a few friends who may be interested in this sort of thing and am toying with the idea of posting a link at my web community...we only have about 350 members (mostly harmless) so it won't produce mass hits for you but it's a start.

Shakespeare: you make exactly the same point as I. The argument finished mostly because I found more information on his plagiarism activities and was able to construct a decent enough argument about readability and so on. My opponents were either too stupid or too lazy to continue playing with that subject. I envy Andi (U of Vienna) being allowed to study The Hitch Hiker's Guide 'trilogy'... Doug is one of my fav authors.

Anyway, have a happy commercial-free weekend

Angie

Douglas Adams, a Life

You fucking kick ass...pardon the french....but I read the article...In Praise of a Big Women last night and today I felt like 100 times better about myself! I am a female who stands at 5 feet 5 inches and 150lbs. I have relatively skinny legs and nice arms, awesome breasts (if I do say so myself), but my tummy is big. I mean not like huge but not some four pack tight stomach that every women wants. Sometimes I will take off my shirt and look at myself in the mirror and think to myself, holy shit I look 4 months pregnant, those are on my REALLY bad days. It sucks, and I hate it. I will probably never be able to wear a bikini, or even feel comfortable in a bathing suit, and I hate that cause i LOVE the beach. I am only 19 years old, and I know that I shouldnt be running out looking for a man like right now, but I often wonder if I will ever find a man who will not care about my stomach, like what if it gets in the way during sex or when we are cuddling. I have had two serious boyfriends, and neither or them cared, they thought I was beautiful, but it never helped. After reading that article like 50 times I felt so much better, I even printed it out and made my friends read it. I cannot believe how much truth there was to it. Anyways I al just rambling now...but you kick ass....thank you for writing about TRUE beauty...

Liz

Thanks for the appreciation. That is why I write.

Do not worry too much about your appearance, just stay healthy. Despite the line that most doctors spout you can be fit and fat, many women who are by most schemes of things classed as seriously overweight are still fit enough to do endurance swimming. Don't give up on the beach or your body, you will need it, bodies are not optional.

You do not need to be found attractive by everybody. As long as you know that some people find you attractive you can keep your self esteem. You say you are nineteen and have large breasts, believe me, as long as you have a head as well there will be plenty of men who find you attractive enough. Besides we now have the internet, probably one of the finest aids to finding a partner that man has ever devised, well, after alcohol obviously. The internet is the perfect opportunity to get men interested in you as a person, if a man finds the idea of you attractive he will find you attractive. There are lots of ways in which women can find partners that do not involve meat markets.

My wife was 19, fat and feeling unattractive when I met her, through an advertisement in a newspaper. The advertisement told me she was big, but it also told me she wanted to find a husband, although not in so many words. I was feeling lonely at the time and saw this as a great way to cut the crap and get straight down to it, hello, let's chat, see if we click, if we do we will take it further. Within three weeks we were engaged. She had never had a previous boyfriend, but what did that matter?

Keep cheerful. Love yourself, be loveable. I am not going to tell you some crap about there being a Mr Right out there for you, that is nonsense, there are probably thousands who would do fine. If you are not looking to get married just now why bother trying to get picked up by men at all? Casual sex is not compulsory, if it isn't what you really want don't bother with it. I have heard many men talk about having casual sex with fat women: fat bitches are more grateful; it was great, but I'm glad my mates didn't see; she was OK to practice on, etc. I suggest that unless you really do just want casual sex and you don't care what he thinks inside you should guard your honour better than a Britneyesque cheerleader type. Don't be easy, it is not that he will not respect you in the morning, what matters is whether you respect yourself.

Sex is easy, any fool can do it, you hardly need proof of that. It doesn't take a lot of practice. If you love and respect yourself it will be easier for other people to do the same. Don't worry about your stomach getting in the way of sex. It probably will stop you doing some positions, or at least some variations on positions, but it doesn't matter. When my wife was nine months pregnant we still had great sex and she was enormous, where there's a willy there's a way. One thing to say about having sex with a fat woman is that you can't be subtle, it is either her knees up to her ears or her head in the pillow. But who needs subtlety? It is still great fun for both parties. That reminds me, a painfully shy bloke wanted to treat his woman right so he bought her some flowers. She was overcome, she threw herself on the bed with her legs in the air.

Err, what's that for?

For the flowers darling!

Haven't you got a vase?

Hi, I just read your article about big women after having searched on google for "the history of obese women as beautiful" I would like to thank you on your ability to voice your opinions. I agree with every word you have published on big women. I myself am a "big woman" by American standards, although I see myself as "proportional" I'm 28 years old, happily married, and have one child. Single, I starved myself to become "more attractive" and fitting of the beauty standards that surround me. I was hungry, unhappy and most impoartantly, still single. I came to the realization that skinny didn't work for me, began to eat again, live life, and love myself again. I've been everywhere from a size 12 to a 24 (US sizes), and feel very satisfied as a size 18.

Hello.

My name is Carol. I live in the UK and have just read your article on big beautiful women. I couldn't agree more with your points on big being beautiful. I am 5ft 1 and a uk dress size 20. I have had some photographs done professionally and was told to try and get in to modelling. Unfortunately this country doesn't do much with "big women". I have found myself passionately believing in what you said about big being beautiful and would love to be able to promote this as a positive thing. I wondered if you knew of anyone or anything I could do to make this happen. If I had to describe myself I would say that I am "perfectly in proportion" "big belly, big boobs (uk38EE), and big bum". I also have a fun sense of humour and am able to laugh at myself and I don't take myself too seriously. I would be grateful if you could get back to me with some information, even if its just to say hello! Thankyou for taking the time to read this and look forward to hearing from you soon.

Carol

Hi,

Sorry for the delay in replying. I couldn't think of anything to reply with straight away and then the message got buried. I see no reason why a woman of your size should consider herself abnormal or freakish. Your body size is slightly above the average but not extreme. If your figure is in proportion and your face is pretty then you may well be beautiful.

Being big cannot make a woman beautiful, but being slightly bigger than average should not prevent a woman being beautiful. There are many men out there who have a taste for femininity, who see the typical page 3 model as great as far as she goes, but would really like something a bit more. A woman with more of a female shape is more exciting. I can't understand men who seem to go for women with long legs, I like women's legs, with women's thighs, yes I'd take long ones over short ones but I'd prefer a short woman's legs to a tall lady-boy's legs. Have you seen the paintings of Norman Lindsay? He had an eye for female beauty, he knew a woman's worth was not measured by her dress size or by her calorie intake, he could see real beauty in real women:

http://central.dot.net.au/~frankl/PrivateGallery2.htm

They are not fat women, they are simply real women. Real women don't need to wear their jeans skin tight in order to look like women. If you take a female body and strip away all the fat it doesn't look very female. Paula Radcliffe wouldn't get Playboy and Penthouse bidding for the rights to display her body. Paula Radcliffe doesn't do anything for me. In contrast Dawn French looks like a woman who would be fun to have sex with, although recently I have been tempted by Nigella Lawson too. Ummm. Why not both? It's all fantasy after all. I'm married.

Martin Willett

Hi Martin,

Came across your site through a search on google.

I am a 30 yr old fitness professional.I am a size 14. And very proud of it. Kudos to you!!

Love what you wrote and totally agree with you!! Keep telling the same thing to countless women day in and day out , but some just won't listen!

All that self punishment to look anorexic and in the end they are still miserable like hell!

And its worse when heterosexual men adher to these gay images of female models and pester regular women to look like them.

The Indian woman has always been curvaceous and voluptous ( Khajurao sculputures etc) Its next to impossibble to look like our western counterparts.

Still the pressure to conform to these body images is tremendous on the urban Indian woman.

We need more men like you to create awareness.

So glad I came across your site. keep up the good work!

Thank You,

Shilpa (Mumbai, India)

Thank you.

Fitness and beauty comes in many shapes and sizes. So does happiness.

Voluptuous Indian women can be very sexy. Of course women can be too fat, and that is not particularly attractive, but if a woman is two or three dress sizes above the so called norm she isn't a fat freak, and there will be plenty of men who like women with a little extra. The feminine shape is defined by fat, it is fat that makes breasts, thighs and buttocks look feminine. To strip away the fat is to strip away the femininity. Unless a woman wants to compete in some sport at a really high level the best fitness regime is a gentle all over body workout that keeps skin and muscle-tone up to the point at which the natural feminine curves are as soft and smooth as possible.

Excuse me. I think I'll have to go and have a lie-down now...

Martin Willett

at last someone who thinks like me.as a 23 year old male i was pushed into thinking thin was beautiful (i now know different) i met my wife 4 years ago and we now have 2 children to me she is the most beauetiful woman on the planet she weighs 238 pounds i weight only 154 pounds but you can keep all those thin women they dont do anything for me

ihave a real woman

keep up the good work

lee

Thanks for the message of support. Kiss that beautiful woman for me.

Just read it! Absolutely Fabulous. Very Impressed. Although I think the word "Fat" has negative connotations and thus maybe you shouldn't use it quite as much. None of the women, excepting the statues, would or could really be considered "Fat". I am a 30 year old, large size woman. I am only 5 foot tall and I have had two children. My body is representative of my age and that I am capable of conceiving and birthing healthy children. However, I am not a woman who gets wolf whistles anymore. I was once a very slim,yet shapely woman. And I literally stopped traffic on several occasions. Not anymore. But I don't think its because I am undesirable. I think it's because American men are afraid of being ridiculed for admiring the shape of a woman like me. Society so much tells them that they should not be attracted to a shape like mine. And men are generally very impressionable. Much more so than women. I think the focus of changing the cultural options about body image should be much more impressed upon young men, than on young women. After all, the desire for young girls to have an attractive shape is rooted in attracting a young man. They will try to be what young men think they should be, rather than what they think they should be. I clicked on the link on that page "comment" and read the posting by Chris and was struck by this comment "I'm not gay, and I'm not a photographer, so explain why I find thinner women more attractive." If that were so true, then what was he doing when he came upon your site? And what compelled him to read it? Hmmmm? I think Chris is a closet "fat girl" lover.

To comment on his statement about fat women not being able to conceive, he is terribly misinformed. Large women are more likely to conceive than thin women. Additionally Large women are more likely to be able to carry a child to term, and give birth to a healthy live baby. Thin women are more likely to begin menstruating late, have menstrual disorders, be unable to conceive, have a higher risk and percentage of early miscarriage, have low birth weight, and generally unhealthy babies for lack of nourishment during pregnancy, as the baby is constantly being nourished by mom's fat stores. If there are little or no fat stores, the baby is undernourished. What is now needed more than anything is for retail clothingers to begin manufacturing clothes in more realistic sizes. It is not an uncommon complaint from my female friends of all sizes can't find a pair of pants that fit right. Either the waist is too small but the butt is just right, or the butt is too small and the waist is just right-or too big. Clothing sizes were first standardized by the Levi Strauss company. And for a while, all clothingers adhered to these standards. Now a days, you'll be lucky to find two size 12 pants that are precisely the same size, even from the same manufacturer. These size standards represented the average size of a woman of the corresponding age during that time period. Women were generally more stocky from hard work, a concept lost on society today, and fattier content foods. A woman aged 12, in the 1800's was much smaller than the average SIZE 12 of today, but much bigger than the average 12 YEAR OLD woman today.

In history, a larger size woman, as you stated was a status symbol, but in ancient and prehistoric times it also signified that she had not only could but had given birth, and probably to male heir child, as her size indicated that she had TWO men taking care of her.

The Virgin Mary has been throughout the history of Christendom, depicted as a thin waif. The purpose of this to emphasize her age and status as a virgin. But if carefully study, we will recognize that Mary was of Middle Eastern decent, firstly, and ancient Jew second, and was probably covered from head to toe, thereby making it impossible to accurately judge her true body size. That she gave birth indicates that she was probably not as thin before or after Christ's birth as we are used to seeing her. Considering the age and climate in which she lived, and the socioeconomic status of her family as we are taught to have been, she was probably not as big as I am, but certainly not as thin today's super models. There is much argument for larger women that would demand a change. Hopefully there will be one. By the way, Queen Latifah, notoriously very large, looked absolutely STUNNING at the Oscars. A true super role model.

Thank you.

Amy Lathrop

Buffalo, NY, USA

Chris is young, maybe in time he will grow wise. He was a regular visitor to the site before I wrote that particular article. My own wife is very similar in proportions to that Palaeolithic Venus (except for the breasts, unfortunately) and I can attest that she had no problems with fertility despite having an ovarian cyst like a watermelon removed during her first pregnancy.

I think you have read a little too much into the Madonna imagery, I can't recall seeing any really waif-like madonnas.

(links to madonna paintings)

None are fat, but neither are they especially thin. The main point seems to get across a youthful innocence, so they seem to be light-framed women with just enough feminine curves to suggest the Holy Spirit didn't have paedophile tastes and covered with a skin which is so smooth it must contain a little fat. Looking at the hands of this one shows that the young woman could not have been as thin as a modern catwalk model, you can't see the bones in the back of her hand nor her face (unlike the male figures). A really beautiful face, but not the only kind of beauty there is. That is the main message, beauty can come in different sizes.

Queen Latifah? I don't know who she is, but such ignorance is easily cured these days: quick image search, Oh yes, I'd be well satisfied with a woman who looked like that!

Martin Willett

I'm a BBW I'm just starting to realize it though.  Reading your page helped me on that.  I've always been surrounded by "toothpick" people but honestly I think I look better.  My husband agrees, what can you do with a woman if she doesn't have anything to hold on too?  Thanks for supporting us!!!

stumbled onto your "In Praise of Big Woman" article,
and gave it a read through... i am *very* glad i
did...

coming from a 5'3" woman who weighs a nice round 150
at age 33, and has weighed that *exact* amount for all
of my adult life (since i was 18), save a few brushes
with illness... i have just rolled my eyes to any
person who told me that i was "officially" a good 20
lbs overweight... the way i hold myself when i walk, i
think it might have kept any doctor from suggesting i
even entertain the thought of a diet....

on those few occassions, where i *did* loose a good
deal a weight while ill (with my brain tumor)... i
was certain to gain it back when i was healthy
again...

i have never found myself in a position where no man
would want me as a lover, because of my wide "chunky"
frame and curves, and i have never found a mirror i
needed to hide from ...

the only time i have found unflattering fotographs of
my body, they were inevitably taken by someone
with a penchant for those who were a bit more waif
like... the camera only seems to mirror (and amplify)
the prejudice of the photographer...

soft, comforting, welcoming, sensual... this is what
*i* desire in any woman who shares my bed, and i am
proud that i can offer the same to my lovers..

Julia.

Mr. Willett,

I just read your article "In praise of big women" and I have to say, it made
me really happy. At first, I was a bit worried, because I have read other
articles along the same lines, only it turns out that when the author says
"big women" he actually means "a tiny bit bigger than a tiny skinny model",
and that's so disappointing. But then you brought in your wife to protest
that Kate Winslet is not a big woman, and declared proudly that your wife is
bigger and more beautiful that Kate Winslet. I have to agree with your
wife. Kate's gorgeous and everything, but not big.

I think you must have by now gotten lots of emails from women who are
grateful that you, a man, can say he finds big women to be sexy without
making it sound like some kind of fetish. But I'll say it too: thanks for
your honesty.

Indulge me for a moment: last night, I was a party, and Woman 1 asked Woman
2, "How old are you?" Woman 2, who is a physical therapist and exercises
religiously, said that she is 30. Woman 3 says to Woman 1, "God, you're 30,
and you don't look as good as her," pretending that she was kidding in a
friendly sort of way. Woman 1 then had to laugh uncomfortably, and defend
herself by saying that she just had a baby, and she knows she's out of
shape, but she hasn't had the time yet, etc. Woman 1, by my guess, can't be
any bigger than American size 10. I'm sorry to say that the conversation
went on further, and the husbands of all three women found the conversation
to be hilarious. These aren't my friends. My friend, who was the hostess
of the party, is probably American size 18, so she had to laugh
uncomfortably too. My reaction was, well, if you think she's fat, you must
think my friend and I are disgustingly obese.

I'm indignant, but earlier in the evening, I caught myself thinking that I
wished I were as skinny as all three women. You're indignant too. That's
two of us promoting, as you said, the cause of real women. But do you
really think it will ever change? Especially when women are not only the
victims of skinny-bias, but also the perpetrators?

I just stumbled on your website accidentally, and I was going to tell you
how I got here, as per your request, but I can't remember. (I was wandering
the internet aimlessly, while I should be writing a paper.) I did read
quite a bit of it, and will have to come back soon to read more. It's nice
to find something new and thought provoking to read.

Expect to see a photograph of my breasts soon. That's just too good to pass
up.

Thanks for reading and sorry for rambling.

Jill Gurdak

Jill,

Let me make this clear, I don't think women have to be fat to be beautiful. Women have to have some fat to be beautiful, having no fat means women must look less attractive than they could (and should) be.

Women with what doctors would call an ideal body mass index can be beautiful but I personally don't find such a figure attractive in and of itself, meaning that having such a figure is not in itself enough to attract my interest. Millions of women are slightly overweight and not especially attractive, to me or to many other men. If they lost weight they believe, because they have been told and tell each other, they will become more attractive. That is not true. Losing 20 pounds is never going to turn an ugly duckling into a swan. It can make the difference between being seen as attractive by many men and being seen as drop dead gorgeous, it might make a difference to your career if you are an actress or a model but I seriously doubt that for most women it would be worth the effort. Most women who are "slightly overweight" by conventional standards stand to make themselves unhappy by the effort of losing weight to about the same degree that being lighter would have any kind of pay-off to them.

Obesity is something else again, only strange people find obesity attractive in and of itself and it does have severe health implications. Obese women can still be beautiful and attractive but anybody who finds obesity itself attractive has some severe attitude problems. A beautiful woman who happens to be obese is still beautiful but an ugly woman who is obese is just an ugly fat woman.

I agree with you that women need to sort this issue out. It is women who are keeping this issue live because it is the women who are in competition to appear attractive. I recognize the sentiments of that conversation as I have heard many similar things myself. My wife has been obese all her life, her oldest friend has been on a diet for all her life and is constantly talking about food, diet, losing weight, struggling to get into bikinis, "being naughty" with food and similar things. It is about 20% of every conversation she has. And that has been the case as long as I have known them both, which is coming up to 16 years. Many a time I have felt like telling her to shut up and have a bit of sensitivity. I'm not even sure if she knows the effect it has. Have you ever watched TV shows from the past that show white people being totally insensitive and unaware of their racist attitudes? It is cringe-making to watch. That is what it is like with this woman. Often I just have to leave the room as I can't stand the way she prattles on about food and weight and being 20 pounds over her ideal weight when my wife is sitting there obviously twice her "ideal" weight and she's expected to empathize!

How can women be so stupid and insensitive? Women who would try to avoid using the words "see", "look" and "colourful" when they were with a blind person seem to switch off their sensitivity when it comes to weight and food around fat people.

It isn't done to talk too knowledgeably around ill-educated people. It isn't done to boast about spending in front of poor people (outside of US TV). It isn't done to boast about your vigorous sex life in front of the elderly, the infirm or Catholic priests. It isn't done to talk about long drinking sessions and your favourite wines in front of a reformed alcoholic but somehow it's perfectly OK to prattle on for hours about a woman struggling to lose 5 pounds in front of people who are clinically obese. I'm not suggesting that people should treat food and weight as a taboo subject around fat people but they should have some sense of decorum and show some humanity and respect.

Martin Willett

http://mwillett.org/

hello martin

i am a professional actress in the san francisco bay area, and i'm writing because i take issue with your comments about gay men in an otherwise thoughtful, sensitive and above all rational article. being a theatre professional and living in the sf bay area puts me in contact with MANY gay men; in fact i've probably more gay friends than straight. a bit of an exaggeration there, but not by much. while there are undoubtedly gay men who are repulsed by women as a whole, i have never met one. in my experience, most gay men, and i'd say the stereotype of gay men, love women; they just don't want to sleep with them. i am 5ft tall, 36-24-36 with natural d cups: i'm a curvy little girl. curvier than most in my field (as i've both tits and ass), but certainly not the curviest out there, and i am constantly being admired by gay men. in clubs, after shows, on the street, gay men will complement me, ask me to dance, strike up conversations. i've even had gay friends and acquaintances tell me if they were ever to sleep with a woman, they'd like to sleep with me because i 'look the way a women should'. as a marilyn monroe impersonator, very often hired to perform at gay clubs and AIDS benefits, i receive as much praise for my figure as for my performance. i think if you were to come to san francisco and talk with some gay men about the female form, you'd find many more agree with you than don't. also, i have to mention that studies of pedophiles show that straight men outnumber gay men in the abuse of small boys around 10 to 1. if you're talking about gay men who are attracted to or consensually date teenaged boys (round about 17, 18ish), the number might go up. but, after teaching some acting workshops in high school, i have to say i've seen a few 17 year olds I find attractive and i'm 33! lastly, fashion designers draw lanky figures because the 'lines' of the garments show better on them. you can better see the details. they insist on height for the models; it's the agents who insist on emaciation. i think the real culprit to blame for perpetuating the anorexic look is modern hollywood. the camera adds 10 to 15 pounds, but that didn't stop marilyn, ava gardner, rita hayworth etc from being huge stars, so i can only figure that 'someone' -man or woman- in the last 25 years decided women had to be thin with huge fake breasts and that was that. the only thing we can do to counteract this kind of thing is to keep writing articles like yours and speaking out on the many many forms of female beauty. thanks for the article and the forum for conversation. be well

sarah

I am surprised it has taken so long before somebody took issue with me on this point. I would not man the barricades over the assertion that homosexuals are to blame but I thought it was an interesting theory worth launching on the world. The idea that models should be seven foot tall and thin as rakes is new, it did not appear before the 1920s. I do think homosexuals are implicated.

“It is our supreme object to have a head looking like a wet football on a neck as thin as a governess's hatpin” wrote Cecil Beaton in 1928. He was of course gay, one of the most influential photographers of his day. The look of the tall thin model is aloof and asexual, you really have to have a pretty vivid imagination to see those vertical clothes racks as female or sexual, I have never managed it. They really don't register much with heterosexual men who much prefer women with more curves, and shorter than themselves too.

The supermodel is aimed at women. Height and thinness are now both status symbols in the world of women. To have both makes a woman a better woman, better as judged by other women. Fashion is run by women and gay men, the lack of straight men allows the process to go to extreme and obscene lengths. The thinnest models are those in magazines with readership which is 100% female and aspirational. Just look at Playboy models, they are slightly thinner than they were when Hugh Hefner started but they are not by any means all stick-insects, men's women are never that stick thin.

Women with problems caused by this obsession with thinness should stop blaming men, at least straight men. In places where men are in control women are dressed from head to toes in baggy garments that disguise their shape totally and so they are free to be their natural shape underneath. Fat is a feminist issue, the fact that body fascism exists shows the power that women have. Female beauty is A Bad Thing for a male dominated society, beauty empowers women. When men have the power they make women cover up their bodies and frown at the concept of beauty treatments and make-up, just think about puritan women: no property rights, no power, no navel piercings and no lipstick.

Being beautiful and sexually attractive gives women power. Sometimes it gives them so much power they can't handle it and they go off the rails. Just think of Anna Nicole Smith and Marilyn Monroe, women who were brought up and apparently destined to be shop assistants or waitresses find they have the bodies and modelling ability to lever themselves into another world, a world they are totally ill-equipped to cope with, a world in which they cannot find happiness. There simply is no ideal husband or life available for the woman with the brain (tastes, education and aspirations) of a waitress in the body of an icon.

I'd be interested in your take on the gay icon thing, the women that gay men obsess about: usually dead, tragic and heterosexual. I've asked my gay acquaintances to explain it but they didn't do a good job, neither was the brightest lip gloss in the make-up bag.

Martin Willett

http://mwillett.org/

hiya

your assertion that high fashion models are "aloof and asexual" is exactly the point: the models are simply there to show the clothes. if they were shaped as women we would notice THEM instead of the garments. i in no means want to defend the fashion world or those within it who demand a ridiculous level of 'beauty' from their workers (the models) which they themselves could never hope to attain (ever seen anna wintour, the all-powerful editor of Vogue? or eileen ford? blechh), yet there was originally a method to what has become madness. only in the last 25 years have models become so very emaciated. we must remember that twiggy was an anomaly, a freak in a world dominated by jean shrimptons, maggie tabberers and verushkas. i don't know from where the cecil beaton quote comes but it sounds much like the designs for 'my fair lady': slender-necked women with immense hats atop elaborate up-dos - perfectly in keeping with victorian and edwardian fashions in the us and europe. and as to hefner's current crop of women, they are 22% skinner than they were in the 80s, by playboy's own account. i do agree that women are the harshest critics of women, and deserve most if not all the blame in the progressive death of women and individual ideas of beauty, but men, and heterosexual men at that, have some blame as well. while you may be the kind of man who sees beauty in women with a ready eye, but you are a rarity, to be sure. i have witnessed acne-ridded, pot-bellied, balding men criticize lovely lovely women with the vicious ruthlessness of a 15 year old girl; comments about their legs, their dress, their hair, skin, eyes, nose, muscle tone, breast size, shape, butt, fingers, hands- and all the while there were no blue ribbons hanging off these men, by a long shot. you say fat is a feminist issue; it is, but only when what's at issue is the right to be fat. not all men appreciate zaftig women, or even plump women. how many 'no fat chicks' bumber stickers must you see to know that hatred of and revulsion by fat people is a humanist issue? check out this url for a sample: http://www.ubersite.com/m/33335

when you say that in male-controlled environments women are free to be themselves beneath their burkas and veils, it sounds as if you're saying it's better for the women than in a 'female-controlled' society wherein the women subjugate each other into becoming thinner and self-loathing etc. in the former society, it is not that beauty empowers but that men fear their own urges in the face of women, beautiful of not. that and the whole CONTROL part of a male-controlled society. to say that straight men have no complicity in the push-up bra, thong underwear, high heels, lipstick world is naive at best. yes, women compete with women, but in the end, women dress to be attractive to men and men have told us what they want. the number of men who prefer women in shapeless garments rather than say, fitted jeans and a tank top, in my experience, is small. i don't know your ethnicity, but the neighborhood in which i live is very black (west oakland), and the number of large women far outnumbers the more slender, and these women all have men. these women all dress provocatively and see nothing wrong in that or themselves. i think it is a very 'white' phenomena, this 'thinner than thou' epidemic. in fact studies have shown that the incidence of bulimia/anorexia in black colleges is almost non-existent, yet when black girls come to predominantly white colleges, they are 80% more likely to develop an eating disorder. it certainly wasn't the power of being sexually attractive that sent MM over the edge; it was a crippling insecurity, endless search for a father figure, and a mental instability that were only fed by the hollywood system. she said, "hollywood's a place where they'll pay you $1000 for a kiss and 5 cents for your soul". ANS i know little about, but MM detested the "marilyn get-up" as she called it. i think the gay fascination with her and judy garland stem from the fact that both were used for their talents and then thrown away. the gay men i know who love these women do so because of their brilliance but also, they recognize their pain in them: there was more to them than just their looks or their voice. they were people, and worthwhile and had been shunted into one studio exec's perception of them. when the studio felt judy was too old (at 28) they told her she was washed up and fired her. she slashed her neck. when marilyn read 'the brothers karamotzov' and said she wanted to study at the actor's studio, they mocked her in print and told her to keep her mouth shut and her legs open. they were both in a closet in a way- a tired way of looking at it, yes, but... each was more, but viewed as less. MM and JG are revered as icons by most because most weren't alive to see them perform or couldn't meet them and tell them that they understood, and valued them for all that they were. that's my take on it. so there's my long reply.

Male dominated societies do not welcome female beauty because it arbitrarily gives power to certain women randomly. If you are the lord of the manor, the king or the sheikh you want all women to be seen as equal so that your wives, sisters and daughters are valued in relation to you and your power and wealth rather than against some arbitrary beauty ideal. Beauty was inconvenient. If the son of the neighbouring kingdom wanted your younger daughter rather than the elder daughter he had been betrothed to since she was born it was bloody inconvenient, but your son falling in love with a peasant or gypsy girl would be even worse. Male dominated societies try to downplay female attractiveness, female displays and love, it's bad for business, family business.

In contrast female emancipation frees women to compete against each other in the most ruthless way, especially by encouraging fashions that accentuate any imperfections. Fashions delight in showing off calves, thighs, midriffs and busts, forcing many women to either buck the fashion or show off their flaws. If you've got it, flaunt it, and make them that haven't got it reveal that fact too, or look like frumpy losers. Current western street fashions allow no prospect of hiding any imperfection. Trousers to hide your legs? Forget it ladies, the fashion is for trousers so tight people can read your lips as you walk. Where you would most welcome a bit of ambiguity the cloth must stretch so much tighter.

Is that a little puppy fat around your midriff girl? Sorry, the fashion police demand that you bare it for the world to see. Oh yes, we'll pretend it's just to show off the pierced navel but we all know it really shows off our taut and hairless midriff. Trousers to cover thick ankles? Do you think we were born yesterday? You can cover your legs to just below the knee if you want but you must show off those ankles, because ours are simply perfect, see?

In contrast men's fashions are much more flattering. The efforts of the male peacock's efforts to get the tight shorts and deltoid-revealing skin tight t shirt to be made uniform is rightly being resisted, at least in straight circles (wuh?). Jackets with slightly padded shoulders and flaps that loosely cover the backside and shirt and tie details that pull the focus back to the face show that this is a uniform designed to enhance status not to accentuate minor differences between competing specimens. When women get the chance to wear something similar they often leap at the chance. Women who are powerful in their own right are largely diurnal, the sluts and vamps come out mostly at night.

How often does a man tell his wife or daughter to expose more flesh before leaving the house? Not very often. Men can see an erotic image in a couple of squiggles or a gesture, they don't really need to see most of the goods before they think about unwrapping them. Sexy clothes are an arms race that is conducted between women. I have noticed that in Stockport on a Friday night the typical girl about town (average age under the minimum age for entry to the club they are in but over the maximum age for the concessionary travel tickets they use) has escalated to thermonuclear weaponry, if they were to go any further in making a clear statement of intent they would have to go naked, walk in on their hands and pour beer over their labia.

I have noticed that African American culture is much more appreciative of female beauty in a wider range of sizes. That's healthy. I wish that spirit would spread so that there was a wider selection of shapes and sizes that are acknowledged to be beautiful and worthy of emulation. Women who are quite thin like supermodels can be attractive (to some men, not really very much to me, but we needn't all have the same tastes) and full figured and rounded women can be attractive too. I would love to see a broadening of the range of models shown to be attractive, beauty isn't a case of one size fits all.

Perhaps part of the reason why African American culture is accommodating to the rounded woman is the fact that black women tend to have bigger backsides and that has been seized upon by black men and women alike as a good thing, a thing to show some pride in. I have to say I find the bootylicious paradigm to be much closer to my idea of female perfection than the rather pathetic representations of the supposedly perfect white woman's backside I get shown in the media. Kylie Minogue? Do me a favour. I want to see a much more rounded and full shape than that in my vision of perfection.

I still don't fully understand the gay icon thing, I suspect there is something else involved. Maybe one day I'll have a more complete theory.

Thanks for your input. Every time I debate I get a clearer idea of what I actually think. I'll look again at my ideas about gay men finding women repulsive, that isn't quite right, it probably needs a few more tweaks. The great thing about this form of publishing is that you can edit stuff again and again, getting closer to perfection each time.

Martin Willett

http://mwillett.org/

As a white,curvy, 25 pounds overweight and size DD woman,I thank you a thousand times for your article "In praise of big women".If only all men in the world were like you and immune to skinny,flat Selma Blair-like images of women in the media that represent a tiny minority of females.

I didn't know who Selma Blair was. I did an image search to check her out.

Yuck.

Wallpaper without lumps.

She's got a pretty face, but a body like that should not be on display, certainly not in any form of pin-up. I think I am pretty much immune to that kind of a woman. She simply does not register with me as a legitimate target of lust, she would have to have an amazing personality to catch my attention. She's not actually repulsive, not quite, she looks quite healthy, but I think it would only take two days of diarrhoea and she'd look like a Belsen victim. Many women could never look that thin without being ... well ... dead.

Martin Willett

http://mwillett.org/

Sorry Martin, my computer crashed and I couldn't get back to you for the longest time.

Okay, I would like to go to every teenage boy in America who has that hideous pinup on his wall and tell him “Selma Blair only looks like that because she has a personal chef and an army of personal trainers and whatnot. If anyone else had that much fat on their body, they would be dead. Women like that do not appear in nature and believe me, it's just as well.”

When I was in high school, practically only the girls you would see making out and holding hands with guys in the hallway were the ballerinas and gymnasts. And some of them were ugly bitches and it was like what is wrong with this world that my friends and I can't get dates and they can.

The world is indeed sick and crazy. But there is still hope. Some people do know better and there is a chance that we can eventually get that message across.

Beauty comes in different shapes and sizes, not just extra small.

Men, your penis will not drop off if you go out with a woman who is more rounded than the strange thin women you see on the television. You may actually like more rounded and larger women if you allowed yourself to admit it. Try one, there's plenty to choose from.

Martin Willett

http://mwillett.org/

Amen and Hallelujah! Finally a man with the same philosophy as mine. I am and always have been a full figured woman. I read your page and totally agree with your comments about the fashion industry and the gays.

My daughter and I are both (and always have been) full figured women. I just want to say thank you and that you need to get this out to more men in the world.

Keep up the good work. The picture I've enclosed is of me and my daughter. We like ourselves just the way we are, it's the rest of the world that has the problem.